unpopular fannish opinions. again.

[wisdomeagle]

I'm having so much fun reading these unpopular fannish opinions that I felt the urge to have some of my very own. I might have gone overboard just a bit. There are 12 unpopular Angel opinions, 10 unpopular Buffy opinions, 10 unpopular general Jossverse opinions, and 20 popular opinions, just for kicks.

[spoilers through NFA]



Angel
1. I like Fred and think that, despite the fact that she was never the focal point even of her own arc, she was a well-crafted, interesting, beautiful character and I love her. A lot. So there.

2. I think Wes's feelings for Fred are at least half based on his own ideals about what love and romance should be, that they could probably never be happy together because both come with so much baggage and because their relationship is so tainted with so many issues, and that, despite that, there is a kernel of rightness in their relationship, of attraction and friendship and love and desire, that transcends all the horrible dren that's associated with their relationship. In other words, yes, shameless Wes/Fred shipper.

3. I didn't think I would ever like Angel/Cordelia, was vaguely squicked and confused by the idea of it, and will say endlessly and forever that they are Just Friends. Until S3. And then Joss sold me on their love hook, line, and sinker. I think their love for each other is far more mature than Angel's love for Buffy ever was, that they are a pair of friends who've made a life together, who have compatible personalities, and who love each other deeply. I think their mystical connection as Seer and Hero is beautiful (I think the same of Angel/Doyle, of course, and Giles/Buffy and various other pairings) and love the way it slowly bloomed into romance. I loved Offspring-Provider. Squeed my way through. Or, in other words, yes, shameless Angel/Cordy shipper too.

4. I think Gunn and Fred truly loved each other and were cute together. I'm not sad that their ship ended, because I don't think it ever really could have lasted, but in another time or another place, it could have. I'm sad that the 'ship was mishandled and treated just as a means to break Wesley, as was Fred's entire arc.

5. I think Cordelia was still controlling the body until "Spin the Bottle," when she started to act weirdly but wasn't quite sure why. I vaguely suspect it wasn't till she was impregnated that the post-hypnotic suggestion really started kicking in, but I think Cordelia was still aware of herself as a concious agent at least part of the time until around "Calvary." I quite like the idea, not mine, that a large part of pod!Cordy's personality comes from Cordelia's idea of what a villain should be rather than from Jasmine.

6. I dislike both the evil!Cordy arc and the Illyria arc, despite adoring evil characters, because both Cordy and Fred were robbed of their agency. The arcs revolve around the other characters reacting to the evil entities posessing the bodies, not the characters' own inner darkness or the way they deal with the evil within. I think the Cordy arc can be redeemed by retconning, but the Illyria arc was just a poor choice, despite showing off AA's acting ability.

7. I think Joss should have left incarnation theology well enough alone given that he's a practicing athiest, but I respect that it's his story to tell, and given his distrust of organized religion, the Jasmine-arc isn't all bad.

8. I like Fred better than Illyria. I like Illyria too, but think Its arc was poorly handled and a bad choice given the givens (they had to move all their plotlines up a notch after the cancellation.) I like Illyria in ats_nolimits better than canon Illyria becasue she/It is incredibly intelligent and emotionally autistic, a character type I like quite a bit.

9. I think Connor should have died at the end of S4 and that pulling their punch becasue they really liked VK and felt sory for the character was damned poor story-telling. Of course, had Connor actually died by Angel's hand, and mindwipe hadn't happened, S5 would be the darkest season ever. I don't really have a problem with that. I liked "Origin" a lot but wished Connor hadn't shown up in "Not Fade Away." I thought the ambiguity of "Origin" was good and that Connor in NFA didn't particularly serve a purpose.

10. I don't really care enough about Gunn to think that horrible things happened to his character at any point in canon.

11. I liked Lorne. Also Harmony.

12. They didn't die. They didn't survive. They're all still huddled in the alley, cold and wet and grieving Wesley, prepared to do the job they have to. World without end, in Joss's name, amen.

Buffy: the Vampire Slayer

1. S7 had some huge flaws in it, but I liked it anyhow.

2. S6 is one of my favorite seasons and I see no big flaws except of course the magic=crack one.

3. I don't give a damn about Spike except I miss the snark. I have absolutely no opinion on the attempted rape in "Seeing Red."

4. I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me. And I love her. While I can understand why people think the Willow/Tara relationship was poorly handled, I'm also a die-hard Willow/Tara shipper and I believe in their love. It might not have sizzled, but it was beautiful.

5. I thought Adam could've been interesting, but wasn't. (Probably not all that unpopular, except for the benefit of the doubt part.)

6. I think Xander/Anya was one of the best handled, most realistic relationships on the show. I don't think it was all about sex. I think that they, unlike 90% of the other characters, actually had a healthy attitude towards sex. Both of them enjoyed it and they had lots of it, but I don't think that was the sum of their relationship, and I don't think their arc was ended. Anya's death was a travesty. Killing someone because you need the approrpiate level of tragedy in your show's ending is not cool.

7. I loved the show a lot more before I got into fandom. But I can forgive the fen, because I'm learning a lot in fandom about how to think about media and art. Still, I miss being able to watch stuff uncritically. This is technically an opinion about fandom in general and not Buffy in particular but oh well.

8. I don't think I'm a particularly insensative or stupid person, but I didn't see Xander's treatment of Anya as abusive. I rather dread rewatching S6 for fear I'll see it and not love Xander anymore. I loved Xander so much when I first saw S6, far more than I loved Willow, and Willow is my emotional constant in the show.

9. I think Joyce was the First in "Convos."

10. I don't care whether or not Spike and Buffy had sex in "Chosen." I wanted to see more of the D+D.

General Jossverse:

1. I like Marti Noxon and Joss Whedon rather a lot. I like what I've seen of Joss Whedon's public persona. I think RPS/RPF isn't any less moral than saying that Marti Noxon a) is a whore b) needs therapy c) is emotionally unstable or that Joss Whedon a) has a deep-seated fear of women b) has issues with sex so large we need a book to explicate all of them or c) is a vicious sexist whose feminist persona is a big fat lie. We don't like personal attacks on fellow fans; why are they okay against TPTB? Especially since they wrote the frelling show for us. Also, I think Joss especially and the rest of the writers as well are artists.

2. Faith's entire arc moved too fast. I can understand it on further viewing and deep reflection, but on the shows, it moved too fast from bad girl to evil girl to redemption. Way too fast, way too much off-screen. That said, I think a Faith series could be good. And I'd watch, of course.

3. I'm a multi-shipper and proud. I like Wes/Lilah, Wes/Angel, and Wes/Fred, all for different reasons. And I like Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Willow/Giles, and Willow/Xander, all for very different reasons.

4. On a related note, I see everyone in Jossverse canon as bisexual, with a few possible exceptions that I can't think of at the moment.

5. I don't think Spike/Angel is all that interesting a pairing. I see the subtext, certainly, but it doesn't compel me the way other pairings do. I don't think that Spike's feelings for Angel (of love, hatred, envy, whatever) are as strong as many people seem to think. Angel has never been the center of Spike's universe: that was first Dru and then Buffy. They've certainly fucked at least once -- possibly several times -- but I don't think it was a defining relationship for either of them.

6. I think Angel is a more ambitious show that was occasionally brilliant and often a brilliant failure. Buffy was less ambitious and a more consistently solid show. And I enjoy watching Buffy more because it doesn't make me want to kill myself.

7. I would have preferred a full season of Firefly to S7 of Buffy, but only if they ran with the Kaylee/Inara subtext.

8. I wish they'd explored the ramifications of the mindwipe and of Dawn more articulately than they did, which might have redeemed both arcs in my mind.

9. I think the shows function better when there is a clear symbolic or metaphorical structure underlying the supernatural elements. This is because, oddly enough given what I do with most of my time, I'm not a genre person and don't especially enjoy sci-fi or fantasy. This is another reason I like Buffy as a show better: the demons are clearly articulated metaphors for the struggle of growing up. It's hokey, but it works, and it resonates with me on a level that demon pregnancy, evil law firms, and super secret circles of dark-colored plant barbs don't.

10. Cordelia and Angel aren't siblings. Cordelia and Wesley aren't siblings. Willow and Xander aren't siblings, and the word incest does not. Apply.

And just for kicks, twenty popular fannish opinions.

Angel
1. Connor/Cordelia is icky.
2. I liked Doyle and am sad that he died.
3. Grown-up Connor was very, very annoying and on the whole, I'm glad he wasn't in S5.
4. The end of S2 was very strange.
5. The Jasmine arc is confusing.
6. I wish Cordy had been in S5. Her arc was nowhere near over, and the show needed more female characters.
7. Season 5 was very, very gay.
8. There's lots of Wes/Angel subtext in S3-5.
9. Wesley is very pretty.
10. Gunn/Gwen was a pretty cool 'ship.

Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. I wanted to like Kennedy. I was honestly prepared to make a good faith effort to like her. I hated her on sight.
2. S7 had some major flaws, man.
3. Riley was boring.
4. Dawn was an annoying twit at times. Then she got cool. And learned Sumerian, somehow.
5. Giles is double plus good.
6. I like Oz.
7. I like Angelus.
8. "Gift," "Restless," and "Once More, With Feeling" are frelling amazing works of art.
9. Wesley is annoying in S3 of Buffy. but on rewatching, Giles is a bastard to him.
10. The SFX is S1 leave something to be desired.

Comments

[sk8eeyore.livejournal.com]

I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me.

Totally.

BTW, how on earth do you make time for fandom AND being a great student (especially with theses) the way you do? I'm kind of in awe.

[wisdomeagle]

I skimp on things like eating and sleeping and having a life.

And I really should spend more time on theses and less on fandom... but fandom is so compelling!

[mosca.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on a lot of these. I love Fred and her moments of complexity that everyone forgets about. It frustrates me that she got dismissed very quickly as a Mary Sue, to the point where (circa "Supersymmetry") she became a layered character, nobody was allowed to like her anymore. Because obviously her only use was as a love interest. And you know, Joss's crush on her is obvious-- frightening, if you listen to the DVD commentary-- but she transcends that a lot. Not least because Amy Acker is one hell of an actress.

Totally with you on Spike, Xander/Anya, Spangel, the bisexuality of everyone, and the swiftness of Faith's arc. You've summarized Wes/Fred well: he's so blinded by his idea of her that he's ceased to love the real person. (That's how I read Mal/Inara, too-- it's a theme in the greater Jossverse.)

Friending you because I think I like your brain, and because callmesandy told me to.

[wisdomeagle]

nobody was allowed to like her anymore. Because obviously her only use was as a love interest.

*sigh* It's things like this that make me glad I watched the show first and got into fandom second.

And you know, Joss's crush on her is obvious-- frightening, if you listen to the DVD commentary

I've heard that a lot but didn't notice it myself when listening to the commentaries. But then, I've got a big crush on Fred, too.

You've summarized Wes/Fred well: he's so blinded by his idea of her that he's ceased to love the real person. (That's how I read Mal/Inara, too-- it's a theme in the greater Jossverse.)

Innteresting on the Mal/Inara; I'll have to consider that more. It's not a 'ship I like, so I spend most of my time ignoring it.

I think the same could be said of the way Kaylee idealizes Simon, even though he's (imo) quite clearly wrong for her. And of course Bangel is the huge example of this. Must definately think about it, especially about how positively such idealization is presented to us by the writers.

Yay! Will friend back. :)

[mosca.livejournal.com]

*sigh* It's things like this that make me glad I watched the show first and got into fandom second.

I didn't realize the depth of the Fred hate until sometime in S5. I didn't like her for a while, myself-- it took the Jasmine arc and some rewatching of early S3 for me to figure out what she was up to.

Innteresting on the Mal/Inara; I'll have to consider that more. It's not a 'ship I like, so I spend most of my time ignoring it.

It's a 'ship I only like if they never get together. I like the sexual tension, you know? But I am weak for Kaylee/Inara and Mal/Jayne.

I agree that Simon/Kaylee has that element of idealization, although I think it's mutual-- Simon starts seeing Kaylee as sophisticated and unattainable, or assumes she must be because she's into him. The other place I *really* see the dynamic is Angel/Cordy, where it seems like they fall in love because everyone is telling them they ought to.

The canon 'ships I like best-- Zoe/Wash, Wes/Lilah, Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara-- I like *because* they're down-to-earth. They usually function as secondary 'ships in canon, contrasting the idealized, sexually tense ones, come to think of it.

And yay for new friends!

[wisdomeagle]

Heh -- I think I've just realized that fandom made me love Fred almost as a defense mechanism. I mean, sure, she did some things that piss me off (specifically her failure to stand up for Wesley in S3), but I sure don't think she deserves the fanhate she gets.

It's a 'ship I only like if they never get together. I like the sexual tension, you know?

I'm beginning to think I've got more than one of that kind of pairing. But I'm not sure I could name them off the top of my head.

I agree that Simon/Kaylee has that element of idealization, although I think it's mutual-- Simon starts seeing Kaylee as sophisticated and unattainable, or assumes she must be because she's into him. The other place I *really* see the dynamic is Angel/Cordy, where it seems like they fall in love because everyone is telling them they ought to.

Huh. I've only seen Firefly once, so I don't know if I could really say for sure, and I don't really get Simon (except insofar as he loves River). And I don't so much see that in Angel/Cordy, but then again, I'm odd.

They usually function as secondary 'ships in canon, contrasting the idealized, sexually tense ones, come to think of it.

I love secondary 'ships too, and all of those you mentioned are hardcore OTPs for me. Another example is Chiana/D'Argo in Farscape. I like them because they seem real to me, far realer than the great romances, of which Buffy/Angel is the obvious example.

Then, sometimes I like the great romances too. Ah, I don't understand myself.

But definately going to muse more on the idealization of love objects in the Whedonverse. :)

[cadence-k.livejournal.com]

I agreed with some, disagreed on others, but overall this was interesting!

This one, though, is totally right on: 'I see everyone in Jossverse canon as bisexual, with a few possible exceptions that I can't think of at the moment.' Hell yeah! :)

[wisdomeagle]

Well, I'm glad you disagreed with some: that's the whole point of them being unpopular. :)

Yay bisexuality!

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

I like Fred, too. I really liked Illyria, though. And not just for the hotness and the showcasing of AA’s acting abilities. Illyria’s possession of Fred was problematic because of all the uber-romanticization of Fred that came along with it (we’ve talked some about this before, when we talked about Wes/Fred) but once Illyria was actually around, i found her really interesting. She was somewhat like Anya and Glory with the whole Superiority Complex Wisdom of Ages Trapped in Inferior Human Body thing going on, but she also has her own schtick.

Tara was the only character i really identified with (though as i got older i identified with Giles more, but by that time ME had already invented Tara). I like her muchly. I really liked Willow/Tara until Willow started messing with her mind and i have never fully forgiven her for that and ever since then i was all “Tara, you are too good for her” and we had this conversation in the comments of your Tara&Giles fic, didn’t we? :)

I hated hated hated Angel’s decision to mindwipe the crew. I really liked Connor getting his memories back and having NFA make canon the suspicions we all had after "Origin."

I thought the pacing in S7 was horrible, but looking back at the episode list to cull out highlights for a friend, i realized that a lot of the episodes were really good, or at least had really good stuff in them.

I think S6 does lots of really interesting things with depression and transitioning into the “real world” of adult life being on your own and about abusive relationships (though i disliked some of the ways Buffy/Spike was played). I’m a big fan of Spike (all phases, though i think bringing him onto Angel was a bad decision, because he was basically just superfluous comic relief) and thought Buffy/Spike was a really great relationship of complementary darknesses and issues though sometimes it was written badly and i hated that Buffy got so abusive towards Spike and wouldn’t let herself have the good relationship that it could be. And while i understand Spike feeling that he had to get a soul in order to be worthy of Buffy or prove himself to her or whatever, i disliked that it seemed like the writing staff thought he needed a soul to truly be a good guy or whatever because i really liked that he had turned good despite not having a soul and saw it as the latest step in the progression of the soul/morality development of the Jossverse.

My understanding is that a lot of the badness of S6 Buffy/Spike as well as magic!crack was Marti working out a lot of her issues, and for that i dislike her (though of course Joss deserves some blame as well for letting her do it) but i don’t have mad hate for her. And

I dislike the hate and stupidity and insults (and atrociously bad fanfic) in fandom but love the community of critical thinking. Yes, it has ruined me in some ways, but i tend to think that if something can’t stand up to a good critical eye than maybe i don’t wanna be watching it. (This is me being a bitch and clearly is not how everyone operates, and i wouldn’t require that everyone operate as i do -- much though i might like to.)

I also am not particularly compelled by Spike/Angel and agree with your paragraph thereon.

And really that's enough from me for now.

[wisdomeagle]

Hee, we've definately discussed lots of this before: Fred, Wes/Fred, Willow/Tara, and I think even Marti.

I dislike the hate and stupidity and insults (and atrociously bad fanfic) in fandom but love the community of critical thinking. Yes, it has ruined me in some ways, but i tend to think that if something can’t stand up to a good critical eye than maybe i don’t wanna be watching it. (This is me being a bitch and clearly is not how everyone operates, and i wouldn’t require that everyone operate as i do -- much though i might like to.)

I wouldn't abandon fandom for the world, and this kind of critical thinking makes my brain so happy, since it's the kind of thing I've always loved but never really had a name for until suddenly there was fandom and lots of people thinking seriously about the same kinds of things. On some level, I think I want to be able to analyze the source as it's given and not have to pick it apart and say, "look, continuity errors," or "look, bad feminism," or "look, Marti has issues." But then of course the source is imperfect and we need to do something with those imperfections. But the thing is we tend to get so caught up in the imperfections, in saying this is why S7 is bad or this is what I didn't like about Illyria or whatever, that we lose sight of the original good thing that is fandom: analyzing the source material.

I agree with some of your Spuffy thoughts but after seeing all sides of the Spuffy issue hashed out endlessly, I'm beginning to feel my head spin. Hence the not caring.

There is lots of good stuff in S7.

And oh, word on Buffy transitioning to the real world. I identify with Buffy most in S6 than any other season and heck, I'm not even clinically depressed. (Probably.) Nor am I in or was I ever in an abusive relationship. But escape mechanisms? Hell yes. Like, oh say, fandom? (And there's a piece of meta that I do <3 verily.)

So yay, Elizabeth thoughts! (Can I call you Elizabeth? This whole LJ-community and naming thing is so odd to me.)

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

Yay for discussion! We have established quite definitively that we do not share a brain, but it's probably better that way :)

Oh, critical analysis to the point where one forgets what one loves the show, yes, i definitely agree that that's a bad thing.

I'm a big fan of Spuffy, but i can see the discussion being head-spinning and thus leading to not-caring and am not going to force you to engage in a thorough discussion with me since you're content to just leave me to my opinions.

I'm not sure if i ever particularly identify with Buffy, but a friend of mine was a senior in college that year and really identified and her talk has ever since colored how i look at S6. I think even without her, though, i would have appreciated the idea of Life/Adulthood As Enemy and other such themes (though i loathed her decision to work at DMP; asking for a monetary settlement sufficient to last until Dawn was out of college would have been the sensible thing to do -- though i suppose one could argue that she was having self-loathing issues and an actual job was the highest she could bring herself to aspire to, and of course there's the meta that they needed her to have a day job that ground her down to complement eveything else grinding her down).

Yes, please do call me Elizabeth. (Unless you come up with some witty nickname, of course :) ) I tend to call everyone by their "real" names unless told not to (or unless i don't know their non-LJ names). I understand people wanting to keep online/fannish identities separate from their other identities, but i'm not into making an active effort in that direction for a variety of reasons. And i'm rather attached to my given name, though i enjoy how my parents refer to me as Hermione when they comment on my LJ so that people know to whom they're referring.

[wisdomeagle]

True, true. I already share a brain with Gvambat and there's really not room for more people in there.

Yes, you're entirely free to feel whatever you would like about Spuffy. I've read way too much meta on it, since it's a popular topic for meta, and have been told that:
-It was a horribly abusive relationship for both of them
-It was in fact a genuine romance
-Spike almost raped Buffy
-Buffy raped Spike
-Buffy's abuse of Spike was worse than Spike's of Buffy
-But of course anyone who believes that is in the habit of blaming the victim
-S7 should have dealt with it and then had them move on
-S7 they should have had sex, PCness be damned
-Spike was entirely to blame for the AR
-Spike wasn't at all to blame for the AR
-Buffy was to blame
-Or possibly Marti
-And also of course Joss, who's fault it all is.
-they were in a BDSM 'ship without a safeword and shit happens
-Their relationship had no BDSM elements whatsoever

Personally I think that Spike should have gone to Africa to get a soul, and they should have played it straight, no stupid gimmick that leaves us all confused three years later, and then fought all the battles and then gotten his soul and then -- nothing. He felt exactly the same, the same guilt, the same desires, the same. Because dammit, that's where they were headed and it would have been interesting.

When I saw that the S6 overview on the DVD was called "Life is the Big Bad" I was totally struck and that's how I see the season and it works so well for me.

I totally sympathize with Buffy's financial problems since I couldn't even get a summer job last summer, not even working at the real life equivalent of a DMP. Also like Buffy, I can't drive. And that's about where my identification with her begins and ends, but S6 I totally get her. Except that she's a bitch to Spike, but honestly, on watching it for the second time, I was less appalled by her behavior towards him.

Elizabeth it is, then. I suck at witty nicknames, and the only one I ever bestowed's recipient has been trying for four years to make me stop calling her "Ska."

You, by the way, may call me wisdomeagle or Ari or RE or Ruth Ellen, although I generally prefer Ari for ol discussion and in fact it feels odd to have people call me by my full name now since I've been nicknamed for so long, but if you call me Ruth, I'll have to beat you with a virtual stick.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

And i rather enjoy not sharing my brain, so it’s all good :)

I’ve read post-“Grave” fic wherein Spike is haunted by those he killed, a la Angel in “Amends.” The fact that soul-having doesn’t change anything in him (his early-S7 insanity was ambiguous about whether it was the result of having a soul or the influence of The First, and evidence leans toward the latter) says to me that those of us who thought Spike didn’t need a soul (oh, ye olde days of wondering whether Spike had somehow “grown” a soul) were right, which makes the writers’ decision that he did need a soul even worse. (I also find myself reminded of mpoetess’ fic “What We Have.”)

I think i remember hearing about an interview in which Joss said that in S5 the Big Bad was Death and in S6 it was Life. (Meta like this is also one reason i like being involved in fandom -- i get to hear about behind-the-scenes stuff like actors leaving and forcing the writers to retool story arcs, and the directorial thinking behind certain things. And yes, now everyone has access via DVD commentary, but i liked hearing about it as it was happening, so it could inform my thoughts as i watched.)

I don’t drive, but not because of the anxiety/klutziness issues that Buffy has, just because i live in an area where a car isn’t a necessity and for most of my life my family didn’t have a car and i didn’t wanna pay lots of money to a driver’s ed program i’d heard was horrible. And i’ve been blessed to snag jobs i love and which i can come back to year after year. I've never had that dark transition, feeling alienated, etc., period like what Buffy had in S6.

And what is this about being surprised about discussion? You’re smart. You say smart things. Smart people read your LJ. Where’s the surprise?

[wisdomeagle]

The fact that soul-having doesn’t change anything in him (his early-S7 insanity was ambiguous about whether it was the result of having a soul or the influence of The First, and evidence leans toward the latter) says to me that those of us who thought Spike didn’t need a soul (oh, ye olde days of wondering whether Spike had somehow “grown” a soul) were right, which makes the writers’ decision that he did need a soul even worse.

Hmm. Dunno. I'd say that there are some definate differences in his attitude towards Buffy in S7 that seem to be the result of the soul... and I think they didn't really touch very deeply on what the implications of said soul were, either in S7 or in S5. But it's never been the most interesting bit of the mythology to me, so I leave it in peace. Although I do think it wasn't the best choice ME could've made.

And what is this about being surprised about discussion? You’re smart. You say smart things. Smart people read your LJ.

Aww. :p

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

10. Cordelia and Angel aren't siblings. Cordelia and Wesley aren't siblings. Willow and Xander aren't siblings, and the word incest does not. Apply.

Word. I've been having this same argument with other folks in other fandoms lately. I'm not a huge Dan/Sam fan in SGland and actually find the pairing somewhat squicky for the most part for many reasons... However, calling it 'incest' is soooo not a valid arguement. Unless TPTB pull an 'All My Children' and make Hammond their father, it's NOT incest.

Also, while I'm on a minor rant in your lj, just because there's a 20 year age gap, it does not automatically make the relationship 'paternal' in nature.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I stopped watching Angel with any sort of consistency after Doyle died. I have eventually caught all the eps though and agree with quite a few of your opinions.

[wisdomeagle]

Oh, for true. I've ranted about this before; I don't know if you remember, in regards to Giles pairings and of course Sam/Daniel, which is one my of my big OTPs, as you (might) know.

But yeah. The whole incest argument in regards to pairings that aren't actually incest? Makes my head spin.

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

I did vaguely remember you as a Sam/Dan fan. Which goes to prove my whole theory that some truly intelligent people can like some really whacked out pairings. *g*

I just find the whole 'incest' arguement insulting on sooo many levels. Since it's pretty much always used in a pujoritive manner, it's like telling someone that their chosen pairing is 'perverted'. Not that all of us slashers aren't going straight to hell anyway for taking all of those nice pristine men and women and making them do all sorts of nasty things. *g*

[wisdomeagle]

I did vaguely remember you as a Sam/Dan fan. Which goes to prove my whole theory that some truly intelligent people can like some really whacked out pairings. *g*

Hee. I *live* for the whacked out pairings, man. :p

fake!incest rant.

I actually am mostly tolerantly amused by the incest argument, and actually I consdered making the text on this icon read "twincest is sexy" instead of "this is sex," but then, I 'ship so much whacked and wrong stuff, and know it, and 'ship it because it's dark and wrong, so, yeah.

I don't know if I'm thick-skinned or thin-skinned, but if I don't let the Sam/Daniel thing go, I'll have a heart attack before I'm twenty, so I try to be cool about it.

[melwil.livejournal.com]

I have way too many opinions in common with you. *g*

[wisdomeagle]

Yay!

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

Wow, you get, like, discussion in your comments. ;)

I do agree with a lot of these and disagree with others and want to hear MORE on still others but er, I'm a wee bit dizzy from reading all that right now. ;) I'm really glad you did this so soon after you friended me though, I now feel Iknow a lot more about you fannishly. :D

[wisdomeagle]

Wow, you get, like, discussion in your comments

Trust me, no one's more surprised than I am. :p

I do agree with a lot of these and disagree with others and want to hear MORE on still others

Yay! I'm glad for the agreement and glad for the disagreement because if everyone agreed with all the statements, I'd think they were living in my brain, and there's already way too many of us in here. :p

I'd be happy to elaborate on anything you want, especially if I should be doing something else at the time.

I now feel Iknow a lot more about you fannishly.

Well, yanno, I did it just for you. :p Seriously, I'm glad it helped.

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

Trust me, no one's more surprised than I am. :p

*lol* *patpat*

there's already way too many of us in here. :p

Hee, I know that feeling. I'll see if anything comes to mind, thank you. :) And yay for procrastination. ;)

Well, yanno, I did it just for you. :p

Awwww, you shouldn't have. ;)

[dawnie1970.livejournal.com]

Damn Woman! You are a Goddess! I agree with each and every one of your points! This is so much better than the BNF ones I read! I think I love you muchly! *hugs tight*

[wisdomeagle]

*hugs tight* YAY! *is flattered*

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

I could be stuffing envelopes but I have to do that tomorrow as well, so instead, comments!

I don't share a number of these opinions but I love the way you state them. Just when I've shot my mouth off and am feeling all "blehmehyuck" I read something like this and remember there really are shades and different ways to look at it. I mean, you're right - I thought the Cordy/Angel almost as parent scenes in Provider and Offspring are adorable. And I do like the relationship between Cordy and Angel in a number of these episodes. I do buy that Angel felt for her.

I think I bail on the ship, in a sense, in Waiting In The Wings because of the scene with Fred and Cordelia where Cordelia is downplaying Angel's possible attraction because Cordelia isn't good enough for him. "The world's champion wants me? Ha," which seems so unlike Cordelia. In Birthday she's so confident her astral self is an exact copy of herself, she's always been the girl who acts as she thinks and suddenly she feels inferior to Angel? It struck a bad note with me.

I really like your theory about Cordelia in s4 - the idea that she was driving longer than may have been assumed. After all, Jasmine wasn't physically there until the conception, maybe that was what needed for full control to happen. Though I want to blame the Jasmine influence for her offer of sex to Connor, period, since he seems so far from her type. OTOH, close quarters and trust built up.

And I'm sooooooo sooooooooo with you on unpopular opinions of BtVS 1 and 2. Nearly word for word.

(Have also friended you, after two fascinating entries in the space of a week or so!)

[wisdomeagle]

(Have also friended you, after two fascinating entries in the space of a week or so!)

Eep! I'm flattered, but I can't promise to always be this fascinating; usually I'm all, "Tired. Bored. School sucks. Me sleep now. Ooh, shiny." But I'm glad you enjoyed this entry. :)

Just when I've shot my mouth off and am feeling all "blehmehyuck" I read something like this and remember there really are shades and different ways to look at it.

Ohh, yay! See, that's what I love best about this meme: not the snarking and the "you all suck and ONLY I AM RIGHT" but the idea that there are shades of opinion and that we're all thoughtful people who can still disagree.

I think I bail on the ship, in a sense, in Waiting In The Wings because of the scene with Fred and Cordelia where Cordelia is downplaying Angel's possible attraction because Cordelia isn't good enough for him. "The world's champion wants me? Ha," which seems so unlike Cordelia. In Birthday she's so confident her astral self is an exact copy of herself, she's always been the girl who acts as she thinks and suddenly she feels inferior to Angel? It struck a bad note with me.

Huh, interesting. I had my own issues with "Waiting in the Wings," mostly because I don't like the idea of them having sex or being sexual only because of the mystical influence, but I see your point. I would tend to interpret most of what they say during that episode as resulting from their extreme embarassment at being forced to do things they wouldn't normally do, especially if they're both struggling with their feelings for each other.

I really like your theory about Cordelia in s4 - the idea that she was driving longer than may have been assumed. After all, Jasmine wasn't physically there until the conception, maybe that was what needed for full control to happen.

I totally go back and forth on the issue of when the posession started, but I tend to want to set it as late as possible: personal bias, not really sure why. Some people put it as early as "Birthday," which I don't agree with at all. My first time through, I definately thought the end of "Spin the Bottle" was the turning point, but on further reflection, I wonder if it wasn't the conception.

Though I want to blame the Jasmine influence for her offer of sex to Connor, period, since he seems so far from her type. OTOH, close quarters and trust built up.

Heh, me too, because, as I said above, icky. :p But here's how my thinking goes:

While ascended, something physical might've been to Cordelia to prime her for Jasmine's conception, but the big thing was some sort of hypnosis, with the main point being "SLEEP WITH CONNOR" imprinted in big, mystical letters on Cordelia's subconscious.

So her choice to sleep with Connor was absolutely Jasmine's fault, but her own justification for it -- it's the end of the world, she wants him to experience some pleasure, whatever -- makes sense in her own head. So there are two reasons: her given reason, which makes a certain amount of sex [edit: sense! Talk about a Fruedian slip!] but doesn't really account for it, and then the real reason, which is the post-hypnotic suggestion.


And I'm sooooooo sooooooooo with you on unpopular opinions of BtVS 1 and 2. Nearly word for word.

I'm glad, especially about opinion 1, which I feel really strongly about. I'm glad I'm not along!

Welcome to the flist! Hope I can help you procrastinate. :)

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

the idea that there are shades of opinion and that we're all thoughtful people who can still disagree.

Oh, totally. As strong as I feel about certain things, I still love reading other people's take because it's illuminating. I've been brought around to liking things I was neutral about by reading other people's views of them. Plus, since I *liked* s6 and s7 of Buffy, if I only read people who agreed with me, I'd have three posts a week to read!

I had my own issues with "Waiting in the Wings," mostly because I don't like the idea of them having sex or being sexual only because of the mystical influence, but I see your point. I would tend to interpret most of what they say during that episode as resulting from their extreme embarassment at being forced to do things they wouldn't normally do, especially if they're both struggling with their feelings for each other.

I can see that in the later parts, but Cordelia and Fred are talking even before that. It's a frustrating episode on many levels because it's a retread and BtVS s2 version was so amazing. Add in how off Cordelia feels to me in parts, sigh, it's frustrating.

I can see Cordelia and Angel falling for each other, I just feel like it didn't work on the show.

I totally go back and forth on the issue of when the posession started, but I tend to want to set it as late as possible: personal bias, not really sure why. Some people put it as early as "Birthday," which I don't agree with at all. My first time through, I definately thought the end of "Spin the Bottle" was the turning point, but on further reflection, I wonder if it wasn't the conception.

It's darned ambiguous! I tend to think that with Birthday, there were already suggestions and pushes. Like a boat that Cordelia was definitely rowing but there were some very strong ripples. But again, for me, that's personal bias as there a couple of places where Cordelia's actions just seem so off to me. I can not believe she wouldn't see Wesley, even just to tell him he had done wrong. When Jasmine takes over the boat - I can totally see your point that it might have been the conception.

Certainly, Cordy's dream about the pod people movie in the beginning of the ep after Spin The Bottle makes it clear *something* was starting.

Have you heard the commentary for Spin The Bottle?

While ascended, something physical might've been to Cordelia to prime her for Jasmine's conception, but the big thing was some sort of hypnosis, with the main point being "SLEEP WITH CONNOR" imprinted in big, mystical letters on Cordelia's subconscious.

Dude, yes. I really like the theory I read in selenak's lj reviews of s4 that Cordelia was never 'ascended' but instead in some sort of Jasmine land - thus Cordelia's lack of power and her complete boredom. And when Cordelia started to realize she could do something, Jasmine shoved her right back. Plus, more time to get Jasmine all the way in? Maybe.

And seriously, s6 is my second favorite season of Buffy. I feel a little more isolated not hating s7 which seems the default position of many.

[wisdomeagle]

*pets your icon!Andrew*

Plus, since I *liked* s6 and s7 of Buffy, if I only read people who agreed with me, I'd have three posts a week to read!

*giggles*

I can see Cordelia and Angel falling for each other, I just feel like it didn't work on the show.

Fair 'nuff. What did you think of the 'shippy bits at the end of "You're Welcome"?

It's darned ambiguous! I tend to think that with Birthday, there were already suggestions and pushes. Like a boat that Cordelia was definitely rowing but there were some very strong ripples. But again, for me, that's personal bias as there a couple of places where Cordelia's actions just seem so off to me. I can not believe she wouldn't see Wesley, even just to tell him he had done wrong.

Yep, and I think any theory of Cordy-Jasmine will have that kind of bias in it -- personally, I want Cordy in charge for as long as possible. Although you make a good point about Wesley! I'm reviewing Cordelia's actions and goals in late S3 and pretty much getting this:

-she must SLEEP WITH GROO at all costs and
-ANGEL ANGEL ANGEL

Those are pretty strong impulses, right there, and I suppose one must wonder where exactly they're coming from. When you pointed out her refusal to go see Wes, that got me thinking... I think having Wesley away from them for the summer is definately advantageous for Jasmine, as is having Cordelia away from the team while Connor goes to Quartoth... still pondering how Sahjean fits into anything. But you've definately given me something to think about!

Certainly, Cordy's dream about the pod people movie in the beginning of the ep after Spin The Bottle makes it clear *something* was starting.

Ooh, point. "Apocalypse Nowish" (aka "Rain of Fire") is right after "Spin the Bottle"... and I believe it's in AN that we get our last glimpse into Cordy's head, the vision of the Beast rising. And it seems to me that Cordy is genuinely lost and confused when she goes in search of the Beast... and that the Beast doesn't recognize her as its master yet when she encounters it.

Then at the end of the ep, she sleeps with Connor, and then, well, then things start to get drastically out of control for poor Ms. Chase.

Have you heard the commentary for Spin The Bottle?

Yes, though mostly I remember the part about Alexis Denisof tickling Andy Hallett while he was tied to the poof. *is terribly shallow*

And seriously, s6 is my second favorite season of Buffy. I feel a little more isolated not hating s7 which seems the default position of many.

I might put S6 as number 3 or so, but definately up there. imo, it's the season that's most consistantly good.

And I bet you must feel isolated, feeling that way about S7! *pats*

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

What did you think of the 'shippy bits at the end of "You're Welcome"?

Loved. One of my pet peeves about s5 after Cordelia's death is the lack of mourning for Cordelia. Esp in contrast to the mourning for Fred, but. I really like Fred so I try not to dwell.

I'm reviewing Cordelia's actions and goals in late S3 and pretty much getting this:

-she must SLEEP WITH GROO at all costs and
-ANGEL ANGEL ANGEL

Those are pretty strong impulses, right there, and I suppose one must wonder where exactly they're coming from. When you pointed out her refusal to go see Wes, that got me thinking... I think having Wesley away from them for the summer is definately advantageous for Jasmine, as is having Cordelia away from the team while Connor goes to Quartoth... still pondering how Sahjean fits into anything. But you've definately given me something to think about!

I think Groo-bits were Cordelia. He thinks she's a princess, he's hot and he's devoted to her. But the Angel stuff I think is a hyping of her natural feelings, intensifying them. I sometimes wonder if Jasmine was manipulating Cordelia's visions as well. Not all along, but from birthday on. Thus, nothing about Connor getting kidnapped.

I tend to think that Jasmine had to do a lot of planning on the fly - no matter what Skip says (hello, unreliable narrator!), there were always snags. And she was working through Cordelia and other small pushes she could make, you know?

In re: Wesley, Skip does point to Wesley and Lilah's romance as something Jasmine 'pushed along' which means Wesley had a part to play.

But I tend to think Sahjahn is a separate thing. Another player that Jasmine is manuevering around. To return to the boat analogy, once the plan comes to Jasmine, the shape of it presents opportunities to everyone?

As to poor podCordy - it's hard to say exactly what Jasmine exact plan was since it all got so cocked up. Maybe she wanted permanent midnight and Angelus and the Beast so her rising would be a deliverance? She and Connor and the remaining AI gang kill all the beasties and demons who are all in one place and that gives her even more strength to take everyone and a heroine angle. Could have been her plan, though that would have implied she intended to kill Angelus. But clearly, she was right to be afraid of Angel.

One of the things I do like about a closed canon, as much as I hate that Angel and Buffy are no more, is that we get to speculate as much as we want!

Oh, and in the commentary for Spin the Bottle, Joss Whedon comments that the reason Cordelia is blurry as she runs away is that it's the last time we see the real Cordelia. She's gone, there - which is his POV. I think the show allows more ambiguity.

[wisdomeagle]

Loved. One of my pet peeves about s5 after Cordelia's death is the lack of mourning for Cordelia. Esp in contrast to the mourning for Fred, but. I really like Fred so I try not to dwell.

Ditto.

I think Groo-bits were Cordelia. He thinks she's a princess, he's hot and he's devoted to her. (snip). I sometimes wonder if Jasmine was manipulating Cordelia's visions as well. Not all along, but from birthday on. Thus, nothing about Connor getting kidnapped.

Well, I think the Groo-bits are totally ic for Cordy, but then, I wonder if the absolute intensity of her need to sleep with him -- while retaining the visions -- it's like she's got a very, very clear agenda and it's totally out of the blue -- as is Groo's convenient return at just the wrong time.

I wonder about Cordy's visions as well, but I really want to analyze the whole idea of visions in the Jossverse more fully and look at Slayer dreams, Doyle/Cordy, and Dru as examples. I'm operating on the tentative hypothesis that the visions aren't really sent per se but that certain people are in tune with the future, with a tendancy towards picking up on serious supernatural stuff that's going on. Perhaps the Powers (as well as Jasmine and W+H) are capable of using that capacity to their own end. And, of course, manipulating visions.

I wonder if Cordy didn't sense Connor's kidnapping since she was out of town? Maybe there's something about physical proximity.

I tend to think that Jasmine had to do a lot of planning on the fly - no matter what Skip says (hello, unreliable narrator!), there were always snags. And she was working through Cordelia and other small pushes she could make, you know?

Definate point -- it certainly feels like Jasmine made up her plan as she went along, but it seems like such a waste -- she had some really good ideas, she just... failed to implement them properly. With a little more planning and a little more patience, she could have pulled it off.

[random theory: she didn't have the time to be patient because something big was looming that threatened all of humanity, and she needed to stop it right then. The First?]

In re: Wesley, Skip does point to Wesley and Lilah's romance as something Jasmine 'pushed along' which means Wesley had a part to play.

That's one of those things I think Skip is lying about, but I do think Jasmine wanted Wesley out of the picture and did her best to make that happen. I hardly think the Lilah-specific bits were all her though. (Random sidenote: it's from the Weslah 'shippers [among others] that we get the whole "Angel/Cordy was totally made up by Jasmine!" thing when it's more canon that the whole Wes/Lilah thing was made up b Jasmine.)

As to poor podCordy - it's hard to say exactly what Jasmine exact plan was since it all got so cocked up. Maybe she wanted permanent midnight and Angelus and the Beast so her rising would be a deliverance? She and Connor and the remaining AI gang kill all the beasties and demons who are all in one place and that gives her even more strength to take everyone and a heroine angle.

Ohh, innnteresting idea. I have never heard a truly satisfactory explanation of Cordy's plan, but that's an interesting thought: she wanted to play the hero.

Jasmine was right to fear Angel, I suppose, but... I don't know. She killed W+H, killed Lilah, got Angelus summoned and then released... I don't know. It's all confusing. Hence, popular Angel opinion number 5: the Jasmine arc is confusing. :p

One of the things I do like about a closed canon, as much as I hate that Angel and Buffy are no more, is that we get to speculate as much as we want!

*Very* true. And now that I've seen all of canon, I don't need to fear spoilers anymore!

Oh, and in the commentary for Spin the Bottle, Joss Whedon comments that the reason Cordelia is blurry as she runs away is that it's the last time we see the real Cordelia. She's gone, there - which is his POV. I think the show allows more ambiguity.

Ah. Yep, show is def. more ambiguous. I think the meta and commentaries can help us, but ultimately, they're only gray canon and only what's actually on the show is canon. Besides, if we had all the answers, what would be have to talk about?

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

as is Groo's convenient return at just the wrong time.

I'm willing to buy that Groo returning just then was a Jasmine push, absolutely. On to the sex, I would say, well, she was in a relationship, she wanted to get laid ...

I wonder about Cordy's visions as well, but I really want to analyze the whole idea of visions in the Jossverse more fully and look at Slayer dreams, Doyle/Cordy, and Dru as examples. I'm operating on the tentative hypothesis that the visions aren't really sent per se but that certain people are in tune with the future, with a tendancy towards picking up on serious supernatural stuff that's going on. Perhaps the Powers (as well as Jasmine and W+H) are capable of using that capacity to their own end. And, of course, manipulating visions.

I think Dru's abilities come off as more sensitivity and feeling, like Cassie's than the painful experience of the visions. The pain makes me think of a message, along with Lorne's way of talking about the visions in That Vision Thing in s3.

But it's another ambiguity, yay! :)

I wonder if Cordy didn't sense Connor's kidnapping since she was out of town? Maybe there's something about physical proximity.

But Doyle sensed Buffy being in danger in Sunnydale all the way from Los Angeles, so I think it's not physical proximity so much as Jasmine clamping down. Or the powers not informing Cordelia since they didn't want it stopped?

My other s3 thing, randomly, is that I think the prophecy Angel would kill Connor came completely true, even the cranky hamburger's version of it - Angel did kill Connor. It just wasn't permanent death. Heh.

but I do think Jasmine wanted Wesley out of the picture and did her best to make that happen. I hardly think the Lilah-specific bits were all her though. (Random sidenote: it's from the Weslah 'shippers [among others] that we get the whole "Angel/Cordy was totally made up by Jasmine!" thing when it's more canon that the whole Wes/Lilah thing was made up b Jasmine.)

I think Skip way overstates the power Jasmine had before taking human form. She could push things, she must have had the power to protect Connor or put in motion the powers that were doing so, but. I doubt she got Lilah to fall on Wesley's dick, to put it bluntly.

I love Wes/Lilah a lot, but I do think Angel and Cordelia were pushed together by forces that weren't them along with being attracted to each other.

And I think Jasmine wanted Angelus running free, making trouble under her direction to distract AI - fear of Wesley and Fred and all of them - and then to abet her rise before she offed him. This is my theory this week.

And you know, Jasmine arc confusing, sure, but I just adore it so much. I lie back and drink it in. Add in that I heart heart crazy prone to failure and bad immoral choices Connor, s4 is my favorite.

I do tend to think Joss says in commentaries = canon, but then another writer in commentary says all of s4 happens in the space of 3 weeks and that just doesn't work with the Buffy x-overs so I choose to ignore it sometimes, clearly. It's canon when it's not wrong. Heh. :)

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

Oops - didn't clarify. On the 'father will kill the son' prophecy, I think it came true in Home and you can line up the Loa's portents with s4 events very very easily.

[gvambat.livejournal.com]

3. I didn't think I would ever like Angel/Cordelia, was vaguely squicked and confused by the idea of it, and will say endlessly and forever that they are Just Friends. Until S3. And then Joss sold me on their love hook, line, and sinker. I think their love for each other is far more mature than Angel's love for Buffy ever was, that they are a pair of friends who've made a life together, who have compatible personalities, and who love each other deeply. I think their mystical connection as Seer and Hero is beautiful (I think the same of Angel/Doyle, of course, and Giles/Buffy and various other pairings) and love the way it slowly bloomed into romance. I loved Offspring-Provider. Squeed my way through. Or, in other words, yes, shameless Angel/Cordy shipper too.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Except sorta about the Giles/Buffy, which just doesn't do so much for me, but...*nods*

4. I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me. And I love her. While I can understand why people think the Willow/Tara relationship was poorly handled, I'm also a die-hard Willow/Tara shipper and I believe in their love. It might not have sizzled, but it was beautiful.

*falls into a huge pit of squee*

3. I don't give a damn about Spike except I miss the snark.

In S7, or through the whole series?

8. I don't think I'm a particularly insensative or stupid person, but I didn't see Xander's treatment of Anya as abusive. I rather dread rewatching S6 for fear I'll see it and not love Xander anymore.

I don't either, and I've reviewed bits of it more recently. I think he's more on edge with her than normal, which isn't good for their relationship, but a far cry from any sort of abuse.

10. I don't care whether or not Spike and Buffy had sex in "Chosen." I wanted to see more of the D+D.

Amen. Wholeheartedly.

2. S6 is one of my favorite seasons and I see no big flaws except of course the magic=crack one.

In retrospect, I think the Spike soul arc was a bad idea and badly played, but not in retrospect, my only issue about it would be how badly it was integrated into the last three episodes.

7. I would have preferred a full season of Firefly to S7 of Buffy, but only if they ran with the Kaylee/Inara subtext.

Maybe. Think I'll know more after seeing Serenity. (Would've preferred S5 of Farscape, though.)

10. Cordelia and Angel aren't siblings. Cordelia and Wesley aren't siblings. Willow and Xander aren't siblings, and the word incest does not. Apply.

Very, very true. However, if you want to use the term to refer to Cordy/Connor, it's slightly less crackful, if not strictly true.

10. The SFX is S1 leave something to be desired.

*snort* *cough*understatement*cough*

12. They didn't die. They didn't survive. They're all still huddled in the alley, cold and wet and grieving Wesley, prepared to do the job they have to. World without end, in Joss's name, amen.

Have I mentioned recently that I worship you?

[wisdomeagle]

<3 you.

10. The SFX is S1 leave something to be desired.

*snort* *cough*understatement*cough*

Well, I just watched an ep of TOS, so I'm inclined to be generous.

Have I mentioned recently that I worship you?

Awwww. *snuggles*

I have no problems with people calling Connor/Cordelia incest. Or, yanno, squicky. Because... it is.

In S7, or through the whole series?

Starting with "School Hard". Spike just isn't snarky enough, yanno? No, really, just S7.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Great entry. We agree on some things and disagree on others, which makes for a happy me *g* Completely agree on the Angel/Cordelia. I loved that relationship, and it irritates me how often it's dismissed as being totally manipulated by Jasmine or that it wasn't a canon relationship (why, because they didn't have sex? There goes Cordelia/Xander, Willow/Xander and Giles/Jenny, then...)

9. I think Joyce was the First in "Convos."

Absolutely, and I have a feeling the writers say this on the commentary (I'd have to check). The only thing that irks me about it is the poltergeist stuff that's going on in the house; we never see the First display that kind of power again, and you'd think that it'd be a useful thing to do when you've got a houseful of potentials who are already edgy and frightened.

[wisdomeagle]

Absolutely, and I have a feeling the writers say this on the commentary

I believe you're right, though I don't remember off the top of my head. Although that doesn't make it canon, I don't really see much evidance for the other pov. But of course, anyone is free to believe whatever they will.

We agree on some things and disagree on others, which makes for a happy me *g*

A happy me, too. :)

I loved that relationship, and it irritates me how often it's dismissed as being totally manipulated by Jasmine or that it wasn't a canon relationship (why, because they didn't have sex? There goes Cordelia/Xander, Willow/Xander and Giles/Jenny, then...)

Plus also Cordy/Doyle and Wes/Fred and Buffy/Owen. :p

Dude, so with you on the irritation. And now I feel like I need an Angel/Cordy icon...

[gvambat.livejournal.com]

Absolutely, and I have a feeling the writers say this on the commentary (I'd have to check).

Yep, it is.

[velvetandlace.livejournal.com]

I like Fred and think that, despite the fact that she was never the focal point even of her own arc, she was a well-crafted, interesting, beautiful character and I love her. A lot. So there.
I completely agree!

I think their mystical connection as Seer and Hero is beautiful
It's the mysticism elements like this that add to my love of, say, Willow/Xander, and while I resist Angel/Cordelia over my immense romanticism of Buffy/Angel, I do like the point you make her - how it's almost classical in its conception. I do need to be more well-versed in AtS than I am right now to cast an opinion, though.

I think Gunn and Fred truly loved each other and were cute together. I'm not sad that their ship ended, because I don't think it ever really could have lasted, but in another time or another place, it could have. I'm sad that the 'ship was mishandled and treated just as a means to break Wesley, as was Fred's entire arc.
I have to agree with a lot of this, too. I love Fred/Gunn and what it was - and how much it broke me when the 'what could be' couldn't happen anymore. I think their 'ship had its time and dissolved, as normal relationships do, but I was sorry in that there could have been much more between them.
I do agree with you about Fred being a plot mechanism for Wesley, and that really was a shame, and again I shouldn't comment as only a somewhat-more-than-casual viewer of AtS. I may get back to you on this!

because both Cordy and Fred were robbed of their agency. The arcs revolve around the other characters reacting to the evil entities posessing the bodies, not the characters' own inner darkness or the way they deal with the evil within.
This is an interesting thing within the Jossverse, and its an interesting commentary that I find suggests weakness in some sense. While the evil and the loss of a defined sense of self leads to a downfall for Cordelia, we do not know what may have happened with Illyria - and what would happen next is, I feel, crucial to understanding why the balances had to shift and what could come of Fred's loss.

I'm way too jetlagged to be commenting - thought I better throw in that disclaimer ;)

2. S6 is one of my favorite seasons and I see no big flaws except of course the magic=crack one.
I like s6 and despite some gaping things (read: magic=crack) I quite like it, too.

4. I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me. And I love her. While I can understand why people think the Willow/Tara relationship was poorly handled, I'm also a die-hard Willow/Tara shipper and I believe in their love. It might not have sizzled, but it was beautiful.
Tara was a beautiful character. I found her compelling because her strength and presence was so quietly calm and constant. Willow's my emotional figurehead for the show, but Tara was too good for Willow for a long time there, but I think had Tara not died, the balance in their relationship would slowly have evened out and there would be appreciation and respect like there needed to be - like there could have been in the beginning. I too believe in their love and I think it was strong and beautiful, and yes, I just adore Willow/Tara.

Still, I miss being able to watch stuff uncritically.
Oh, I agree! I don't come to this by fandom, though - rather, it's my own studies that have done that. I find it almost impossible to disengage with the media and not be analytical anymore. Most of the time, though, I don't mind :)

8. I don't think I'm a particularly insensative or stupid person, but I didn't see Xander's treatment of Anya as abusive.
I don't see it as abusive. Xander was young, and he was confused, and he was trying to be too much too soon. It wasn't abusive at all. I love Xander fiercely.

And I like Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Willow/Giles, and Willow/Xander, all for very different reasons.
I agree - except for Willow/Giles, but that's another story :)

More...

[velvetandlace.livejournal.com]

4. On a related note, I see everyone in Jossverse canon as bisexual, with a few possible exceptions that I can't think of at the moment.
Again, I agree.

5. I don't think Spike/Angel is all that interesting a pairing. I see the subtext, certainly, but it doesn't compel me the way other pairings do.They've certainly fucked at least once -- possibly several times -- but I don't think it was a defining relationship for either of them.
Damn straight. I agree once more.

7. I would have preferred a full season of Firefly to S7 of Buffy, but only if they ran with the Kaylee/Inara subtext.
Oooh. I agree again. Even without the Kaylee/Inara, but oh, bring it on.

9. I think the shows function better when there is a clear symbolic or metaphorical structure underlying the supernatural elements. This is because, oddly enough given what I do with most of my time, I'm not a genre person and don't especially enjoy sci-fi or fantasy. This is another reason I like Buffy as a show better: the demons are clearly articulated metaphors for the struggle of growing up. It's hokey, but it works, and it resonates with me on a level that demon pregnancy, evil law firms, and super secret circles of dark-colored plant barbs don't.
Again, I agree. I'm not a genre person, either. Buffy speaks to me on the emotional level.

[wisdomeagle]

Hurrah, lots of agreement! :D

One thing I'm curious about:

It's the mysticism elements like this that add to my love of, say, Willow/Xander

That's interesting since I tend to see W/X as not really that mystical at all, but as an entirely different dynamic -- can you elaborate?

[velvetandlace.livejournal.com]

The mysticism is mainly allegorical - the woman with power bewitched by the man without; the yearning for normalcy and steadfastness from a spiritual being. It can be 'spiritus' and 'animus', harmony and an understanding... There is a specific classical reference I want, but I'm just not remembering it, I'm sorry! My brain is terrible today.

Mostly I like my Willow/Xander because their grounding is so real and comes from a place more important than mystics and their world. It's a metaphoric thing, I suppose, and why it isn't why I love them, but merely another facet I like to entertain with them. Mostly my understanding of them comes from the significance of their friendship.

I think my ship_manifesto essay about covers how I see them, and to stop me confusing myself when I can't think, I'll just reference it and bow out now :)