[meme] same-sex marriage.

[wisdomeagle]

A meme was born in Icarus's journal. I don't usually participate this kind of meme, but this one has a "why" clause and that makes it automatically better. Meme origin.

If you're religious and support gay marriage, then paste this meme in your LJ.

I am [insert religion here] and I support gay marriage.

Why? Because... [answer].

I am Christian, and I support gay marriage.

Why? Because I'm a lesbian. Because my pastor is a lesbian, my mentors and role models and heroes growing up were lesbians, because [redacted family members for public post, but there are a lot of them] are lesbians, because growing up, I never saw any division between religious folks and glbt folks, because the first six and ten and a dozen glbt people I knew were not only Christians but serious, church-going, seminary-attending, preacher-wanna-bes.

I say this over and over again because Icarus is right -- NOT all religious people --- not all Christians -- are socially conservative. There are glbt Christians. I'm one of them, and I know many of them, and there's not a contradiction there. I declared my lesbianism before I declared my Christianity, and in some ways it's more central to my identity, but both are so important to me, to how I struture my political and social thought.

So. As a USian citizen, I support equality marriage because of all the rights and privileges given to married couples. Because many GLB people choose assimilation, and civil marriage is a powerful normalizing sign. Because I'm glad that [redacted family members] are legally married and I want every same-sex couple all across the country and the world to have those same rights. It's a justice issue, and as a Christian, I believe in justice.

As a Christian, I believe in marriage because I believe in making promises before God. I'm not quite clear in my head on pre-marital sex, and have engaged in it once or twice myself (*g*) but marriage is a different level of commitment, a different level of responsibility, an accountability to which people in all kinds of relationships should be held if they choose.

If my girlfriend and I, who've been together for five years, continue to be together, I'd like us to be able to decide together whether we want to make our commitment formal. I know that I would want to make such a commitment before God and my church family. I am so, so fortunate that I've been involved with churches and ministers who would absolutely be willing to facilitate that commitment, to know that, regardless of civil inequalities and injustices, it would be possible for me to be married in my eyes, in my partner's eyes, in my parents' eyes, and in God's eyes, which is all that ultimately matters.

Comments

[yesj.livejournal.com]

From one queer Christian to another, all I have to say is thank you ♥

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

What you said. When I first got online and realised you and Elizabeth and others were Christian but queer, I couldn't quite reconcile it in my head. Cognitive dissonance, you know? But hey, we learn new things each day, and we grow in our understanding of the world and our beliefs.

Hey, you should link this over in Icarus' journal so people can find it. Definitely words that should be shared!

[kindkit.livejournal.com]

I believe in marriage because I believe in making promises before God

While I respect your point of view (without, as an atheist, sharing it) I also think this is not the same issue as the fight for legal equality in marriage. That's about marriage as a secular institution that confers certain rights and responsibilities, and it has nothing to do with religious belief. On the other hand, religious marriage as a spiritual commitment is available to same-sex couples in a few denominations, regardless of what the state may or may not recognize as legally binding. And in any case, there's nothing to stop a couple from privately making a promise before god even if their church/mosque/synagogue/temple doesn't itself recognize same-sex unions.

I realize I'm sounding nitpicky here, but I think this distinction is absolutely crucial. Part of the reason "gay marriage" gets conservatives so up in arms is that many of them think churches would be forced to celebrate same-sex weddings. They don't understand the distinction between legal and religious marriage, and, frankly, the equality marriage movement hasn't done a very good job of explaining it to them.

[wisdomeagle]

I had hoped to make that clear in the paragraph break between what I want as a US citizen and what I want as a Christian. I'm fully in favor of a distinction between civil and religious marriage. Absolutely, totally. But the question was about why I as a Christian believe in same-sex marriage, and that includes religious reasons as well as civil ones.

There are really three sets of arguments here: the argument about civil marriage, the internal religious argument about marriage, and the internal queer/glbt argument about marriage.

[sangerin.livejournal.com]

To me (not speaking for wisdomeagle) I can't separate them. Part of the reason I want same-sex marriage to be legal is that, until it *is* legal, my church won't even consider whether or not it will be okay for the church to celebrate a marriage between two women. And if I get married I don't want it to be a civil ceremony, and I don't want it to be a "blessing" or a "commitment service": I want it to be a wedding. In my church, with an ordained member of clergy presiding, the celebration of the Eucharist as part of the service, and the same blessings and vows that are taken by straight couples, not the weasel words that people are currently forced to use to avoid the appearance of it being a marriage. And I need people to understand that there aren't just couples who want the legal description of marriage to apply to them, there are some gay people and even gay couples who, deep within themselves, need the religious idea of marriage to be open to them, as well. And that's why I get so steamed when people say "oh, get rid of civil marriage all together, and give everyone civil unions. That will satisfy them."

[wisdomeagle]

And that's why I get so steamed when people say "oh, get rid of civil marriage all together, and give everyone civil unions. That will satisfy them."

I am actually in favor of this (though I feel it's highly unlikely) -- I don't think there should be a connection between the tangible benefits that accrue to civilly married couples and the spiritual commitment that is a spiritual wedding. Straight couples can get married in either civil or religious ceremonies; in Massachusetts so can gay or lesbian couples, and in places, like, oh, say, Kansas, a lesbian couple could get married in a religious ceremony (if they could find a rabbi, priest, minister etc. who was willing), but not in a civil ceremony.

[sangerin.livejournal.com]

It's the "that will satisfy them" bit, in particular, as though we (queerfolk who, shock horror, also believe in God) don't exist. I've seen it so, so often, even from people in my own church.

I dunno. Maybe this is all call-related freaking out, or because recently the ASC (which I'm a member of) passed a "doctrinal statement on marriage" that I wish we hadn't, but I didn't have the guts to stop them and say "why, why are you saying these things?" because I knew I'd cry if I tried, and because I feel like I don't get to have a real say on marriage because, hey, it's not as though it's something I'm ever going to have a reason to want it.

(Right, so that's those nasty negative trains of thought coming back again. Dammit.)

~hugs you for "listening"~

[kindkit.livejournal.com]

I get so steamed when people say "oh, get rid of civil marriage all together, and give everyone civil unions. That will satisfy them."

I don't quite understand your reasoning. If the state offers only civil unions to all couples, with no distinction, then surely that would remove the grounds for any church saying that it won't bless couples who aren't legally married? Nor is there any reason you couldn't have a wedding if your church agreed--it's just that the wedding would not be the legal part of the equation. For religious people, the church wedding would still count as the true marriage in the spiritual sense. Your comment seems to imply that a church ceremony would be less spiritually meaningful if it's not also a legal contract, which surely isn't what you mean.

ETA: And just to be clear, I'm not saying that a civil union "should be enough" for a same-sex couple who wants a religious wedding. I believe every religious tradition should be willing to solemnize the union of two people who love each other. I just think it's a completely distinct issue from the marriage contract, which is a secular, legal institution.

[quirkytaverna.livejournal.com]

This is lovely. It's funny - I grew up so staunchly Catholic. In my late teens I veered away quite stunningly, but there are so many points where I've thought - I want to go back.

But I'm too afraid to step back in a church. I'm too afraid because I'm gay and I don't like that I could be turned away from a beautiful place of faith and strength and hope because of one thing.

So because of that, I shy away from religion and faith and I miss it. Your post makes me want to go back. It makes me feel like I could, one day.