on personfriends and things like that!

[wisdomeagle]

This conversation about Tara's love/sex life pre-Willow, has made me think thinky things, most of which go along these lines: "I didn't have sex till college. Tara is JUST LIKE ME! Therefore, Tara can't've had sex till college either." Thus, I am making a poll. (Woefully, unless I remember to buy myself more LJ time, it might be my *last* poll. Oh noes!) It's really difficult to frame these questions properly since there's boyparts and girlparts and bi-bits, so I've smushed it all into one poll and encourage you to elaborate in the comments.

[Poll #609971]

Some further questions for discussion:
1. Was your first kiss/sex/personfriend someone of the opposite sex or the same sex(if such terms apply)?
2. Is this now your gender-of-choice for having sex/kissage/relationships with?
3. If you are ID as queer, did that ID happen before or after snogging/shagging/personfriends?
4. If you are straight, what questions should I have asked? Because I can't think of any. *woe and tiredness*

My answers:
[college/college/college.]
1. Same-sex.
2. Yes.
3. ID happened first, then snogging several years later, following by shagging several minutes later, and girlfriends several months after that.
4. Er?

...only you should actually, yanno, discuss. And as I am all forgetful of bisexuality despite trying my hardest to remember, you should all smack me.) *woe*

My question is whether queer people tend to have sex-type-things happen later than straight-type-people because it's harder to find other queer people to share kissage with in the HELL THAT IS MIDDLE SCHOOL omg woe.

Comments

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

1. Was your first kiss/sex/personfriend someone of the opposite sex or the same sex(if such terms apply)? Kiss (boy), personfriend (boy), sex (girl)

2. Is this now your gender-of-choice for having sex/kissage/relationships with? If that means both or all, then yes.

3. If you are ID as queer, did that ID happen before or after snogging/shagging/personfriends? before

[that_mireille]

1. First kiss: opposite sex. First sex/personfriend were same-sex.
2. No, yes, yes.
3. Before. In fact, before snogging opposite-sex-type person, but thought there might be slight possibility that I was bisexual. I was not. (Have thought that twice, in fact, once because I thought I should keep an open mind about things, and once because I got very deep platonic love confused with other stuff.)
4. Not straight, so I don't know.

[wisdomeagle]

Yay answerage!

once because I got very deep platonic love confused with other stuff

I maybe did that too. Only I don't know, since nothing happened, really. *doesn't know omg!*

[that_mireille]

Heh. I got engaged to the guy in question, because I am a slow learner. ;) Also because he was nice and safe and non-psychotic, and the girlfriend I'd had right beforehand had been Much With The Crazy. (Which has been a fairly major trend in my dating life. ;) )

[wisdomeagle]

Wow. All that happened to me was I was all, "I'm in love with you omg!" and he was all, "Errr, I thought I was in love with you when you were all safe and gay and unattainable, but maybe not so much. *runs*" Then I started dating crazy girls, something I've fortunately stopped doing.

[that_mireille]

The boy in question also has turned out to be gay, which surprises no one, really, and does make a lot of it make sense. Seriously, I'd probably have married him if it hadn't dawned on me that I was probably going to have to have sex with him at some point if I did. *g*

I've stopped dating crazy girls as well, in the sense that I haven't been dating anyone for the past nearly-a-year. *g*

[kindkit.livejournal.com]

1) Opposite sex
2) Yes
3) This is a complicated question for me, because I basically identify as queer, but that's because of genderqueer stuff in me, not because of the sex of the people I'm attracted to. But anyway, that identification happened after (long, long after) the first kissage etc.

[spudzilla.livejournal.com]

I am bi. My first kiss was when I was 11, so I'm never really sure if that counts as a first kiss or just a kid thing. My second first kiss was in high school.

My first kiss when I was 11 was with a boy, the other was with a girl.

I have only ever had full on sex with a guy (my boyfriend).

Can you enlighten me as to why I seemed to get the vibe from the convo you linked that some people might have a problem with fans reading Willow as bi? That seemed...odd to me.

[wisdomeagle]

I do not know. AFAIK, in fact, the only people who DON'T read Willow as bi are Willow herself, Alyson Hannigan, and Joss. The rest of us are like, "Oz? Xander? Buhhh?"

omg, am too tired for enlightenment! (don't ask me why I decided it was time for meta.)

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

I don't read Willow as bi, because although I don't give a flying frell about what Joss or Aly think, I'm deeply uncomfortable with disagreeing with Willow on subject. If she says that she is gay-not-bi, then I am loather to tell her (reification yay!) that she's wrong about her own sexuality.

Of course, on the meta-level, I'm not thrilled with the decisions by ME that led to this state of affairs, but that's a different story.

[gvambat.livejournal.com]

But it's always time for meta! :p

[glimmergirl.livejournal.com]

My un-thought-out opinion, because I've seen this, too --

some people might have a problem with fans reading Willow as bi?

I think, maybe, because it's harder to define. Bisexuality does't allow for nice, neat pairings based on the gender binary, especially when the bisexuality isn't a nice, neat "likes girls and boys equally."

Also, sometimes I get the feeling being bi meanst you're not straight enough for boys and not gay enough for girls. Or, er, okay, possibly projecting there...

[lostgirlslair.livejournal.com]

I think that's exactly it, or at least that's what I've always thought! As for the last bit, if you're projecting, so am I. I've seen that attitude more than I care to admit. Still, I read Willow as bi and Tara as gay. ::shrugs::

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Also not really okay about talking about my sex life un public (or lack thereof). Kinda Catholic here.

But, as the person who first asked the Willow as bi question, my thoughts were, that well, if Willow's bi there's one less lesbian on TV. And at the time just how many were there? How many are there now? For someone who is lesbian and who sees Willow as a fairly positive example (not in everything of course) muddling the waters could be considered negative.

Like changing a pretty manly greek gay hero to a straight man (in the movie Troy).

Like for me saying Xander is gay changes the character. From a standard het straight man, AKA, not very in touch with his feelings, kinda of a brute, all those stereotypes but still one of the most 'female' roles in the series to gay, well, aren't gay men supposed to be more 'female' in their thoughts? Like Faith was one of the most 'male' characters.

I'm not saying this is what I believe, I'm talking stereotypes here.

So, I see Willow as bi and have no problem with that. That Larry turned out to be gay is okay, loads of straight men for me to identify with. It was meant in the spirit that if you identified with Willow, that could be a problem.

Of course, if you're bi, Willow being bi is okay. I guess.

And please don't assume I meant anything by this, please remember English isn't my first language and I'm not trying to offend anyone. Please? :)

[gvambat.livejournal.com]

I always have problems with saying that characters or stories should run a certain way because otherwise they're perpetuating stereotypes or such...saying the story should be based on what the characters are labeld rather than who they are, or what the narrative needs.

Willow sleeps with women. Great. (If the woman happens to be Tara, wonderful. If the woman happens to be Kennedy, not so great.) Willow is a positive role model for girls/teenagers/women who also want to sleep with women. Excelent.

But if you let that run the show, Willow's a motivational speaker, not a character, and the whole show becomes a soapbox, not a story. Quite frankly, that's boring. There's more to Willow's character than her sexuality, whatever labels you put on it. Part of that "more" is a lenthy, sexual, and ultimately painful relationship with Oz. Part of it is having a crush on her best friend since they were five. And part of it is being a geek, and killing evil things, and having friends die on her. All of which are rather more important, to her character and to the story, than who she's sleeping with.

And on that note, screw the stereotypes, I think S7 would've been a lot better if she'd slept with Xander rather than Kennedy. (This is Ari and my odd version of S7 where Anya dies in "Selfless".) I don't care that he's a guy, I care that they're friends, that they've been through so much together, and that it would mean so much more characterwise. (And, of course, it would get them both onscreen for more than two minutes an episode. But I'm not bitter.)

As an aside, (spoilers through Angel S5) you don't see this argument that frequently with Gunn, although I think there's slightly more justification for it with him--being poor and black and killing things and failing to protect people, that's who he is, how he defines himself. And selling his soul (more metaphorically than literally) for a chance to get out...it looks really bad, but it makes sense for his character, and it makes sense for the story, and I'd say it almost certainly the right move for TPTB to make, given the givens.

well.. .

[mrtwstedwhsprs.livejournal.com]

I always saw Willow as bi, (I will admit, I may have a slight different interpretation of the character of Willow than most, however, as I say this, please remember that Willow is most likely my favorite character in the series.) As far as the reason why she did not refer to herself as bi, there are two reasons.

1) Tara is severely insecure. Thus, in order to preserve her relationship with Tara, Willow cannot identify to her as bi. (I can't think of the name of the episode right now, but Tara pretty much states that she is afraid that Willow is going to leave her for a man.) Thus, as long as she is in love with Tara, Willow has to keep her bisexuality a secret, in order ot reassure Tara. It might not be totally honest on her part, but she's a person, and it's what she did.

2) Willow tends to be self-focussing. This is a bit trickier for me to explain, especially on very little sleep, so bear with me. Willow tends not to be concerned with the big picture, tending more to focus on herself, and to define the world by defining her self-identity, rather than vice versa. (I had a whole essay on this, Willow tending to self-define her view on the outside world, but never finished . . . will have to do that one day.) In other words to make it simple, because Willow is in a same-sex relationship at the time, he identifies herself as "gay."

One final thing, I think a lot of the interpretations of Willow stem from indentifying her with a different stock character than I think is intended by the text. (Nearly all characters are based on various time and society related complex stocks, which are then modified. This is also part of the aforementioned essay.) Willow is too often interpreted as the 80's version of that stock character, when I think she is the 90's version (rarer, the character was less used).

Man, I'm even more pretentious without sleep . . . essay coming soon, hopefully.

Mr. Twisted Whispers (aka The Fiance)
@>--'--,--

Re: well.. .

[(Anonymous)]

(I can't think of the name of the episode right now, but Tara pretty much states that she is afraid that Willow is going to leave her for a man.)

Willow states that she thinks Tara is actually afraid Willow will go back to boys, rather than the fear she is talking about with the magic. Subsequent events prove the magic fear was very reasonable. Willow was being avoidy, and possibly projecting her insecurity.

Re: well.. .

[gvambat.livejournal.com]

Episode is "Tough Love". Issues then got swept under the rug due to impending insanity. If they hadn't, they probably would've had a happier ending (not really happy, seeing as Joss ruled their lives, but it was an issue that could've and would've been dealt with before it got comptetely out of hand.)

[malnpudl.livejournal.com]

1. Was your first kiss/sex/personfriend someone of the opposite sex or the same sex(if such terms apply)?

All were opposite sex.

Tried sex with same-sex partners a few years later, though always as part of m/f/f threesomes or group sex. This and other experiences led me to conclude that I'm pretty much straight.

2. Is this now your gender-of-choice for having sex/kissage/relationships with?

Yep.

3. If you are ID as queer, did that ID happen before or after snogging/shagging/personfriends?

N/A since I'm straight.

4. If you are straight, what questions should I have asked?

Not related to orientation, but you might've included questions about falling in love for the first time. For me that was several years earlier than any of the rest of it, way back in junior high at age 12 (once again with someone of the opposite sex).

[wisdomeagle]

Your icon reminded me I forgot to tell you how much I enjoyed Slings & Arrows. SHINY. So gay!


Re: falling in love. I probably should've! I framed questions pretty much copying Matt's questions, but you're right. I was also wee and 12 when I first fell in love, and I haven't stopped since. :)

[malnpudl.livejournal.com]

Your icon reminded me I forgot to tell you how much I enjoyed Slings & Arrows. SHINY. So gay!

Yay! I'm so glad you liked it. I was blown away by it in all kinds of ways, and I'm so happy to have been able to share it. :-)

Re the falling in love thing, I guess I'm curious whether some people fell in love for the first time with someone of their ultimately preferred gender, even if first kissing/sexing/personfriending was with the other gender. (If that made sense... I'm tired, too.)

[glimmergirl.livejournal.com]

Hm, let's see...

Oh, my first Real Sex, happened between grad school and um, other grad school. Just to explain my non-school answer despite actually BEING in school right now. :)

1. First kiss - opposite sex; First personfriend - opposite sex; first actual sexual encounter - opposite sex. (All highly unsatisfying, might I add... Thus, I didn't count that first sexual encounter as first Real Sex, 'cause it was boring and unstimulating.)

2. Not at all. My woe is in the not being out until post-college. :(

3. Before. I pretty much always knew I was queer, despite all the doing stuff with boys up through post-college. (My queerness is probably bi, but there's a teeny-tiny subsection of the male population I find myself interested, so it's def not a 50/50 split. And why I feel the need to elaborate on this, I have no idea.)

[wisdomeagle]

Thanks for answering!

(I am way too incoherent for other thoughts.)

[(Anonymous)]

Happy (belated) birthday. :)

[wisdomeagle]

Thanks so much, anon!doner. :) *loves*

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

1. Opposite sex
2. Yes, preferably at this moment in time. However, I haven't had a stable long-term relationship to determine this quite yet so....undecided?
3. N/A
4. Hmm....well, someone already mentioned about first loves so, perhaps asking about having that first BIG crush on someone. You know, those butterfly-feelings in the stomach, head-over-heels, can't help but think about this person 24-7 yet are too afraid to go after directly kind of crushes. I know everyone has had this feeling, never minding sexual orientation. Or perhaps that first time you bravely asked someone out and either gotten a positive or negative reaction (again, despite the sexual orientation thing).

Other than that, I'm out of really helpful suggestions for questions.

[velvetandlace.livejournal.com]

I'd answer, but I'm a little iffy about talking about this in public. If you need more data, let me know and I'll email you, okay? :)

[(Anonymous)]

no kisses
unless actor people sort of kissing you on the cheek counts
I find the insanity interferes with dating much more than the queerness

[netgirl-y2k.livejournal.com]

1. Was your first kiss/sex/personfriend someone of the opposite sex or the same sex(if such terms apply)? First kiss opposite sex, first sex same sex almost ten years after first kiss, first personfriend was of the same sex
2. Is this now your gender-of-choice for having sex/kissage/relationships with? My gender of choice would be female, although I did try to have a relationship with a guy I'd become very close to a couple of years ago, which just illustrated to me the huge gap between platonic true love and sexual desire.
3. If you are ID as queer, did that ID happen before or after snogging/shagging/personfriends? I think it happened immediatley after the first kiss with a boy. Although I did try unsucessfully to have relationships with guys for years later. I'm not that quick on the uptake.

So to answer your basic question I think I had sex-type things happen later than my straight counterparts because it took a really long time for me to accept my sexuality rather than having difficulties finding people.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

1. Opposite sex. 2. Yes. 3. Am het. 4. Hmm.

Middle school is hell for everyone, although admittedly probably especially so for those who are queer. It warms the heart to see how great a fraction of your flist didn't have their first sex until college. It's also interesting that those who haven't had their first kiss or first relationship yet are angsting about it, but those who haven't had sex yet aren't in general. That makes sense to me; I can identify.

And the idea, articulated in the comments, that people fall into love (I'll table definitional issues for the moment) before their actual first relationship/kisss/whatever clicks with my experience.

[raedbard.livejournal.com]

My question is whether queer people tend to have sex-type-things happen later than straight-type-people because it's harder to find other queer people to share kissage with in the HELL THAT IS MIDDLE SCHOOL omg woe.
My answers will throw your polling right off, since am sad lady-with-cats-in-waiting sort of person. ;)

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Um, straight person here who did nothin' with nobody til' college. But, y'know, here on LJ you're kinda polling geeks, mostly, aren't you? Which I bet skews things as much or more than the orientation stuff. I mean, I know I had not the social skills until college. :)

[lostgirlslair.livejournal.com]

1. Was your first kiss/sex/personfriend someone of the opposite sex or the same sex(if such terms apply)?

First kiss: Same Sex. First Sex: Opposite Sex. First personfriend: Opposite Sex.

2. Is this now your gender-of-choice for having sex/kissage/relationships with?

Er . . . Yes. I'm Bi. Very, very Bi.

3. If you are ID as queer, did that ID happen before or after snogging/shagging/personfriends?

Well, I've identified as Bi for as long as I can remember. I've always been attracted to both boys and girls and I never felt there was anything wrong with that, internally. Okay, what I mean is, I knew other people didn't accept that kind of thing, but I never had a problem with myself, I just knew not to say anything.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

I skimmed the invisionary thread and also this one and don't have the energy to respond, but I suspect anything I would have said has already been said by somebody somewhere.

I will say that I could have sworn Tara said something to Buffy about how after her mom died she went out and did some reckless things, only I can't find it in the transcripts for either "The Body" or "Dead Things" (which are the two main places I expected to find it). And you know of course that I read Tara and Willow both as nb :)

My question is whether queer people tend to have sex-type-things happen later than straight-type-people because it's harder to find other queer people to share kissage with in the HELL THAT IS MIDDLE SCHOOL omg woe.

That question uses queer as same-sex-attracted-only. Yeah there weren't queer girls around for me to be involved with pre-college, but I identified as queer and was also attracted to some males.

Some further questions for discussion:
1. Was your first kiss/sex/personfriend someone of the opposite sex or the same sex(if such terms apply)?
2. Is this now your gender-of-choice for having sex/kissage/relationships with?
3. If you are ID as queer, did that ID happen before or after snogging/shagging/personfriends?
4. If you are straight, what questions should I have asked? Because I can't think of any. *woe and tiredness*

4. Does that mean you intended the poll to be answered by queer folk?

1-3. I mostly identified as asexual during my adolescence since there wasn't anybody I was particularly attracted to. I had my first serious crush on an opposite-sex person when I was in 9th grade. I had my first serious crush on an same-sex person in 12th grade. Around that same time I read an essay whose definition of "queer" really appealed to me, so I commenced identifying as "queer" (though I frequently say "bi" to people because it gets the point -- that I'm attracted to more than one sex -- across succinctly). I proceeded to spend 4 years at a same-sex college and get no play (though I did have crushes of varying degrees of seriousness). Defining first kiss is always weird for me 'cause a guy friend of mine who flirts with me (and frequently suggests we have sex -- and I'm never entirely sure that he's not serious) once kissed me goodnight and I later learned that he doesn't treat kissing as a serious sexual intimacy thing, so he still kisses me on the lips but it doesn't really mean a great deal to him -- though it kind of does to me, and I'm having flashes of authorial intent debates here -- and that's the extent of my experience with kissage that means anything.

[beccaelizabeth]

I will say that I could have sworn Tara said something to Buffy about how after her mom died she went out and did some reckless things, only I can't find it in the transcripts for either "The Body" or "Dead Things"
Intervention
http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/buffy_tran_96.shtml

Tara: Everyone, before we jump all over her, people do strange things when someone they love dies. When I lost my mother, I-I did some pretty dumb stuff, like lying to my family and staying out all night.
Anya: Buffy's boinking Spike.

Xander nods. Willow and Tara look surprised.

Willow: (pause) Oh ... well, Ta-Tara's right. Grief can be powerful, and we shouldn't judge-
Tara: What are you, kidding? She's nuts!

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU!

(Thought wow, Tara's "What are you, kidding? She's nuts!" line is so discomfiting.)

(And um, I totally wrote "I read Tara and Willow both as nb" instead of "I read Tara and Willow both as bi." *has typo shame*)

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

er, and that should have been "Though wow" in my reply rather than "Thought wow" *facepalm*