Ari (creature of dust, child of God) (
wisdomeagle) wrote2005-02-02 11:08 pm
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unpopular fannish opinions. again.
I'm having so much fun reading these unpopular fannish opinions that I felt the urge to have some of my very own. I might have gone overboard just a bit. There are 12 unpopular Angel opinions, 10 unpopular Buffy opinions, 10 unpopular general Jossverse opinions, and 20 popular opinions, just for kicks.
[spoilers through NFA]
Angel
1. I like Fred and think that, despite the fact that she was never the focal point even of her own arc, she was a well-crafted, interesting, beautiful character and I love her. A lot. So there.
2. I think Wes's feelings for Fred are at least half based on his own ideals about what love and romance should be, that they could probably never be happy together because both come with so much baggage and because their relationship is so tainted with so many issues, and that, despite that, there is a kernel of rightness in their relationship, of attraction and friendship and love and desire, that transcends all the horrible dren that's associated with their relationship. In other words, yes, shameless Wes/Fred shipper.
3. I didn't think I would ever like Angel/Cordelia, was vaguely squicked and confused by the idea of it, and will say endlessly and forever that they are Just Friends. Until S3. And then Joss sold me on their love hook, line, and sinker. I think their love for each other is far more mature than Angel's love for Buffy ever was, that they are a pair of friends who've made a life together, who have compatible personalities, and who love each other deeply. I think their mystical connection as Seer and Hero is beautiful (I think the same of Angel/Doyle, of course, and Giles/Buffy and various other pairings) and love the way it slowly bloomed into romance. I loved Offspring-Provider. Squeed my way through. Or, in other words, yes, shameless Angel/Cordy shipper too.
4. I think Gunn and Fred truly loved each other and were cute together. I'm not sad that their ship ended, because I don't think it ever really could have lasted, but in another time or another place, it could have. I'm sad that the 'ship was mishandled and treated just as a means to break Wesley, as was Fred's entire arc.
5. I think Cordelia was still controlling the body until "Spin the Bottle," when she started to act weirdly but wasn't quite sure why. I vaguely suspect it wasn't till she was impregnated that the post-hypnotic suggestion really started kicking in, but I think Cordelia was still aware of herself as a concious agent at least part of the time until around "Calvary." I quite like the idea, not mine, that a large part of pod!Cordy's personality comes from Cordelia's idea of what a villain should be rather than from Jasmine.
6. I dislike both the evil!Cordy arc and the Illyria arc, despite adoring evil characters, because both Cordy and Fred were robbed of their agency. The arcs revolve around the other characters reacting to the evil entities posessing the bodies, not the characters' own inner darkness or the way they deal with the evil within. I think the Cordy arc can be redeemed by retconning, but the Illyria arc was just a poor choice, despite showing off AA's acting ability.
7. I think Joss should have left incarnation theology well enough alone given that he's a practicing athiest, but I respect that it's his story to tell, and given his distrust of organized religion, the Jasmine-arc isn't all bad.
8. I like Fred better than Illyria. I like Illyria too, but think Its arc was poorly handled and a bad choice given the givens (they had to move all their plotlines up a notch after the cancellation.) I like Illyria in
ats_nolimits better than canon Illyria becasue she/It is incredibly intelligent and emotionally autistic, a character type I like quite a bit.
9. I think Connor should have died at the end of S4 and that pulling their punch becasue they really liked VK and felt sory for the character was damned poor story-telling. Of course, had Connor actually died by Angel's hand, and mindwipe hadn't happened, S5 would be the darkest season ever. I don't really have a problem with that. I liked "Origin" a lot but wished Connor hadn't shown up in "Not Fade Away." I thought the ambiguity of "Origin" was good and that Connor in NFA didn't particularly serve a purpose.
10. I don't really care enough about Gunn to think that horrible things happened to his character at any point in canon.
11. I liked Lorne. Also Harmony.
12. They didn't die. They didn't survive. They're all still huddled in the alley, cold and wet and grieving Wesley, prepared to do the job they have to. World without end, in Joss's name, amen.
Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. S7 had some huge flaws in it, but I liked it anyhow.
2. S6 is one of my favorite seasons and I see no big flaws except of course the magic=crack one.
3. I don't give a damn about Spike except I miss the snark. I have absolutely no opinion on the attempted rape in "Seeing Red."
4. I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me. And I love her. While I can understand why people think the Willow/Tara relationship was poorly handled, I'm also a die-hard Willow/Tara shipper and I believe in their love. It might not have sizzled, but it was beautiful.
5. I thought Adam could've been interesting, but wasn't. (Probably not all that unpopular, except for the benefit of the doubt part.)
6. I think Xander/Anya was one of the best handled, most realistic relationships on the show. I don't think it was all about sex. I think that they, unlike 90% of the other characters, actually had a healthy attitude towards sex. Both of them enjoyed it and they had lots of it, but I don't think that was the sum of their relationship, and I don't think their arc was ended. Anya's death was a travesty. Killing someone because you need the approrpiate level of tragedy in your show's ending is not cool.
7. I loved the show a lot more before I got into fandom. But I can forgive the fen, because I'm learning a lot in fandom about how to think about media and art. Still, I miss being able to watch stuff uncritically. This is technically an opinion about fandom in general and not Buffy in particular but oh well.
8. I don't think I'm a particularly insensative or stupid person, but I didn't see Xander's treatment of Anya as abusive. I rather dread rewatching S6 for fear I'll see it and not love Xander anymore. I loved Xander so much when I first saw S6, far more than I loved Willow, and Willow is my emotional constant in the show.
9. I think Joyce was the First in "Convos."
10. I don't care whether or not Spike and Buffy had sex in "Chosen." I wanted to see more of the D+D.
General Jossverse:
1. I like Marti Noxon and Joss Whedon rather a lot. I like what I've seen of Joss Whedon's public persona. I think RPS/RPF isn't any less moral than saying that Marti Noxon a) is a whore b) needs therapy c) is emotionally unstable or that Joss Whedon a) has a deep-seated fear of women b) has issues with sex so large we need a book to explicate all of them or c) is a vicious sexist whose feminist persona is a big fat lie. We don't like personal attacks on fellow fans; why are they okay against TPTB? Especially since they wrote the frelling show for us. Also, I think Joss especially and the rest of the writers as well are artists.
2. Faith's entire arc moved too fast. I can understand it on further viewing and deep reflection, but on the shows, it moved too fast from bad girl to evil girl to redemption. Way too fast, way too much off-screen. That said, I think a Faith series could be good. And I'd watch, of course.
3. I'm a multi-shipper and proud. I like Wes/Lilah, Wes/Angel, and Wes/Fred, all for different reasons. And I like Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Willow/Giles, and Willow/Xander, all for very different reasons.
4. On a related note, I see everyone in Jossverse canon as bisexual, with a few possible exceptions that I can't think of at the moment.
5. I don't think Spike/Angel is all that interesting a pairing. I see the subtext, certainly, but it doesn't compel me the way other pairings do. I don't think that Spike's feelings for Angel (of love, hatred, envy, whatever) are as strong as many people seem to think. Angel has never been the center of Spike's universe: that was first Dru and then Buffy. They've certainly fucked at least once -- possibly several times -- but I don't think it was a defining relationship for either of them.
6. I think Angel is a more ambitious show that was occasionally brilliant and often a brilliant failure. Buffy was less ambitious and a more consistently solid show. And I enjoy watching Buffy more because it doesn't make me want to kill myself.
7. I would have preferred a full season of Firefly to S7 of Buffy, but only if they ran with the Kaylee/Inara subtext.
8. I wish they'd explored the ramifications of the mindwipe and of Dawn more articulately than they did, which might have redeemed both arcs in my mind.
9. I think the shows function better when there is a clear symbolic or metaphorical structure underlying the supernatural elements. This is because, oddly enough given what I do with most of my time, I'm not a genre person and don't especially enjoy sci-fi or fantasy. This is another reason I like Buffy as a show better: the demons are clearly articulated metaphors for the struggle of growing up. It's hokey, but it works, and it resonates with me on a level that demon pregnancy, evil law firms, and super secret circles of dark-colored plant barbs don't.
10. Cordelia and Angel aren't siblings. Cordelia and Wesley aren't siblings. Willow and Xander aren't siblings, and the word incest does not. Apply.
And just for kicks, twenty popular fannish opinions.
Angel
1. Connor/Cordelia is icky.
2. I liked Doyle and am sad that he died.
3. Grown-up Connor was very, very annoying and on the whole, I'm glad he wasn't in S5.
4. The end of S2 was very strange.
5. The Jasmine arc is confusing.
6. I wish Cordy had been in S5. Her arc was nowhere near over, and the show needed more female characters.
7. Season 5 was very, very gay.
8. There's lots of Wes/Angel subtext in S3-5.
9. Wesley is very pretty.
10. Gunn/Gwen was a pretty cool 'ship.
Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. I wanted to like Kennedy. I was honestly prepared to make a good faith effort to like her. I hated her on sight.
2. S7 had some major flaws, man.
3. Riley was boring.
4. Dawn was an annoying twit at times. Then she got cool. And learned Sumerian, somehow.
5. Giles is double plus good.
6. I like Oz.
7. I like Angelus.
8. "Gift," "Restless," and "Once More, With Feeling" are frelling amazing works of art.
9. Wesley is annoying in S3 of Buffy. but on rewatching, Giles is a bastard to him.
10. The SFX is S1 leave something to be desired.
[spoilers through NFA]
Angel
1. I like Fred and think that, despite the fact that she was never the focal point even of her own arc, she was a well-crafted, interesting, beautiful character and I love her. A lot. So there.
2. I think Wes's feelings for Fred are at least half based on his own ideals about what love and romance should be, that they could probably never be happy together because both come with so much baggage and because their relationship is so tainted with so many issues, and that, despite that, there is a kernel of rightness in their relationship, of attraction and friendship and love and desire, that transcends all the horrible dren that's associated with their relationship. In other words, yes, shameless Wes/Fred shipper.
3. I didn't think I would ever like Angel/Cordelia, was vaguely squicked and confused by the idea of it, and will say endlessly and forever that they are Just Friends. Until S3. And then Joss sold me on their love hook, line, and sinker. I think their love for each other is far more mature than Angel's love for Buffy ever was, that they are a pair of friends who've made a life together, who have compatible personalities, and who love each other deeply. I think their mystical connection as Seer and Hero is beautiful (I think the same of Angel/Doyle, of course, and Giles/Buffy and various other pairings) and love the way it slowly bloomed into romance. I loved Offspring-Provider. Squeed my way through. Or, in other words, yes, shameless Angel/Cordy shipper too.
4. I think Gunn and Fred truly loved each other and were cute together. I'm not sad that their ship ended, because I don't think it ever really could have lasted, but in another time or another place, it could have. I'm sad that the 'ship was mishandled and treated just as a means to break Wesley, as was Fred's entire arc.
5. I think Cordelia was still controlling the body until "Spin the Bottle," when she started to act weirdly but wasn't quite sure why. I vaguely suspect it wasn't till she was impregnated that the post-hypnotic suggestion really started kicking in, but I think Cordelia was still aware of herself as a concious agent at least part of the time until around "Calvary." I quite like the idea, not mine, that a large part of pod!Cordy's personality comes from Cordelia's idea of what a villain should be rather than from Jasmine.
6. I dislike both the evil!Cordy arc and the Illyria arc, despite adoring evil characters, because both Cordy and Fred were robbed of their agency. The arcs revolve around the other characters reacting to the evil entities posessing the bodies, not the characters' own inner darkness or the way they deal with the evil within. I think the Cordy arc can be redeemed by retconning, but the Illyria arc was just a poor choice, despite showing off AA's acting ability.
7. I think Joss should have left incarnation theology well enough alone given that he's a practicing athiest, but I respect that it's his story to tell, and given his distrust of organized religion, the Jasmine-arc isn't all bad.
8. I like Fred better than Illyria. I like Illyria too, but think Its arc was poorly handled and a bad choice given the givens (they had to move all their plotlines up a notch after the cancellation.) I like Illyria in
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9. I think Connor should have died at the end of S4 and that pulling their punch becasue they really liked VK and felt sory for the character was damned poor story-telling. Of course, had Connor actually died by Angel's hand, and mindwipe hadn't happened, S5 would be the darkest season ever. I don't really have a problem with that. I liked "Origin" a lot but wished Connor hadn't shown up in "Not Fade Away." I thought the ambiguity of "Origin" was good and that Connor in NFA didn't particularly serve a purpose.
10. I don't really care enough about Gunn to think that horrible things happened to his character at any point in canon.
11. I liked Lorne. Also Harmony.
12. They didn't die. They didn't survive. They're all still huddled in the alley, cold and wet and grieving Wesley, prepared to do the job they have to. World without end, in Joss's name, amen.
Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. S7 had some huge flaws in it, but I liked it anyhow.
2. S6 is one of my favorite seasons and I see no big flaws except of course the magic=crack one.
3. I don't give a damn about Spike except I miss the snark. I have absolutely no opinion on the attempted rape in "Seeing Red."
4. I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me. And I love her. While I can understand why people think the Willow/Tara relationship was poorly handled, I'm also a die-hard Willow/Tara shipper and I believe in their love. It might not have sizzled, but it was beautiful.
5. I thought Adam could've been interesting, but wasn't. (Probably not all that unpopular, except for the benefit of the doubt part.)
6. I think Xander/Anya was one of the best handled, most realistic relationships on the show. I don't think it was all about sex. I think that they, unlike 90% of the other characters, actually had a healthy attitude towards sex. Both of them enjoyed it and they had lots of it, but I don't think that was the sum of their relationship, and I don't think their arc was ended. Anya's death was a travesty. Killing someone because you need the approrpiate level of tragedy in your show's ending is not cool.
7. I loved the show a lot more before I got into fandom. But I can forgive the fen, because I'm learning a lot in fandom about how to think about media and art. Still, I miss being able to watch stuff uncritically. This is technically an opinion about fandom in general and not Buffy in particular but oh well.
8. I don't think I'm a particularly insensative or stupid person, but I didn't see Xander's treatment of Anya as abusive. I rather dread rewatching S6 for fear I'll see it and not love Xander anymore. I loved Xander so much when I first saw S6, far more than I loved Willow, and Willow is my emotional constant in the show.
9. I think Joyce was the First in "Convos."
10. I don't care whether or not Spike and Buffy had sex in "Chosen." I wanted to see more of the D+D.
General Jossverse:
1. I like Marti Noxon and Joss Whedon rather a lot. I like what I've seen of Joss Whedon's public persona. I think RPS/RPF isn't any less moral than saying that Marti Noxon a) is a whore b) needs therapy c) is emotionally unstable or that Joss Whedon a) has a deep-seated fear of women b) has issues with sex so large we need a book to explicate all of them or c) is a vicious sexist whose feminist persona is a big fat lie. We don't like personal attacks on fellow fans; why are they okay against TPTB? Especially since they wrote the frelling show for us. Also, I think Joss especially and the rest of the writers as well are artists.
2. Faith's entire arc moved too fast. I can understand it on further viewing and deep reflection, but on the shows, it moved too fast from bad girl to evil girl to redemption. Way too fast, way too much off-screen. That said, I think a Faith series could be good. And I'd watch, of course.
3. I'm a multi-shipper and proud. I like Wes/Lilah, Wes/Angel, and Wes/Fred, all for different reasons. And I like Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Willow/Giles, and Willow/Xander, all for very different reasons.
4. On a related note, I see everyone in Jossverse canon as bisexual, with a few possible exceptions that I can't think of at the moment.
5. I don't think Spike/Angel is all that interesting a pairing. I see the subtext, certainly, but it doesn't compel me the way other pairings do. I don't think that Spike's feelings for Angel (of love, hatred, envy, whatever) are as strong as many people seem to think. Angel has never been the center of Spike's universe: that was first Dru and then Buffy. They've certainly fucked at least once -- possibly several times -- but I don't think it was a defining relationship for either of them.
6. I think Angel is a more ambitious show that was occasionally brilliant and often a brilliant failure. Buffy was less ambitious and a more consistently solid show. And I enjoy watching Buffy more because it doesn't make me want to kill myself.
7. I would have preferred a full season of Firefly to S7 of Buffy, but only if they ran with the Kaylee/Inara subtext.
8. I wish they'd explored the ramifications of the mindwipe and of Dawn more articulately than they did, which might have redeemed both arcs in my mind.
9. I think the shows function better when there is a clear symbolic or metaphorical structure underlying the supernatural elements. This is because, oddly enough given what I do with most of my time, I'm not a genre person and don't especially enjoy sci-fi or fantasy. This is another reason I like Buffy as a show better: the demons are clearly articulated metaphors for the struggle of growing up. It's hokey, but it works, and it resonates with me on a level that demon pregnancy, evil law firms, and super secret circles of dark-colored plant barbs don't.
10. Cordelia and Angel aren't siblings. Cordelia and Wesley aren't siblings. Willow and Xander aren't siblings, and the word incest does not. Apply.
And just for kicks, twenty popular fannish opinions.
Angel
1. Connor/Cordelia is icky.
2. I liked Doyle and am sad that he died.
3. Grown-up Connor was very, very annoying and on the whole, I'm glad he wasn't in S5.
4. The end of S2 was very strange.
5. The Jasmine arc is confusing.
6. I wish Cordy had been in S5. Her arc was nowhere near over, and the show needed more female characters.
7. Season 5 was very, very gay.
8. There's lots of Wes/Angel subtext in S3-5.
9. Wesley is very pretty.
10. Gunn/Gwen was a pretty cool 'ship.
Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. I wanted to like Kennedy. I was honestly prepared to make a good faith effort to like her. I hated her on sight.
2. S7 had some major flaws, man.
3. Riley was boring.
4. Dawn was an annoying twit at times. Then she got cool. And learned Sumerian, somehow.
5. Giles is double plus good.
6. I like Oz.
7. I like Angelus.
8. "Gift," "Restless," and "Once More, With Feeling" are frelling amazing works of art.
9. Wesley is annoying in S3 of Buffy. but on rewatching, Giles is a bastard to him.
10. The SFX is S1 leave something to be desired.
no subject
Ditto.
I think Groo-bits were Cordelia. He thinks she's a princess, he's hot and he's devoted to her. (snip). I sometimes wonder if Jasmine was manipulating Cordelia's visions as well. Not all along, but from birthday on. Thus, nothing about Connor getting kidnapped.
Well, I think the Groo-bits are totally ic for Cordy, but then, I wonder if the absolute intensity of her need to sleep with him -- while retaining the visions -- it's like she's got a very, very clear agenda and it's totally out of the blue -- as is Groo's convenient return at just the wrong time.
I wonder about Cordy's visions as well, but I really want to analyze the whole idea of visions in the Jossverse more fully and look at Slayer dreams, Doyle/Cordy, and Dru as examples. I'm operating on the tentative hypothesis that the visions aren't really sent per se but that certain people are in tune with the future, with a tendancy towards picking up on serious supernatural stuff that's going on. Perhaps the Powers (as well as Jasmine and W+H) are capable of using that capacity to their own end. And, of course, manipulating visions.
I wonder if Cordy didn't sense Connor's kidnapping since she was out of town? Maybe there's something about physical proximity.
I tend to think that Jasmine had to do a lot of planning on the fly - no matter what Skip says (hello, unreliable narrator!), there were always snags. And she was working through Cordelia and other small pushes she could make, you know?
Definate point -- it certainly feels like Jasmine made up her plan as she went along, but it seems like such a waste -- she had some really good ideas, she just... failed to implement them properly. With a little more planning and a little more patience, she could have pulled it off.
[random theory: she didn't have the time to be patient because something big was looming that threatened all of humanity, and she needed to stop it right then. The First?]
In re: Wesley, Skip does point to Wesley and Lilah's romance as something Jasmine 'pushed along' which means Wesley had a part to play.
That's one of those things I think Skip is lying about, but I do think Jasmine wanted Wesley out of the picture and did her best to make that happen. I hardly think the Lilah-specific bits were all her though. (Random sidenote: it's from the Weslah 'shippers [among others] that we get the whole "Angel/Cordy was totally made up by Jasmine!" thing when it's more canon that the whole Wes/Lilah thing was made up b Jasmine.)
As to poor podCordy - it's hard to say exactly what Jasmine exact plan was since it all got so cocked up. Maybe she wanted permanent midnight and Angelus and the Beast so her rising would be a deliverance? She and Connor and the remaining AI gang kill all the beasties and demons who are all in one place and that gives her even more strength to take everyone and a heroine angle.
Ohh, innnteresting idea. I have never heard a truly satisfactory explanation of Cordy's plan, but that's an interesting thought: she wanted to play the hero.
Jasmine was right to fear Angel, I suppose, but... I don't know. She killed W+H, killed Lilah, got Angelus summoned and then released... I don't know. It's all confusing. Hence, popular Angel opinion number 5: the Jasmine arc is confusing. :p
One of the things I do like about a closed canon, as much as I hate that Angel and Buffy are no more, is that we get to speculate as much as we want!
*Very* true. And now that I've seen all of canon, I don't need to fear spoilers anymore!
Oh, and in the commentary for Spin the Bottle, Joss Whedon comments that the reason Cordelia is blurry as she runs away is that it's the last time we see the real Cordelia. She's gone, there - which is his POV. I think the show allows more ambiguity.
Ah. Yep, show is def. more ambiguous. I think the meta and commentaries can help us, but ultimately, they're only gray canon and only what's actually on the show is canon. Besides, if we had all the answers, what would be have to talk about?
no subject
I'm willing to buy that Groo returning just then was a Jasmine push, absolutely. On to the sex, I would say, well, she was in a relationship, she wanted to get laid ...
I wonder about Cordy's visions as well, but I really want to analyze the whole idea of visions in the Jossverse more fully and look at Slayer dreams, Doyle/Cordy, and Dru as examples. I'm operating on the tentative hypothesis that the visions aren't really sent per se but that certain people are in tune with the future, with a tendancy towards picking up on serious supernatural stuff that's going on. Perhaps the Powers (as well as Jasmine and W+H) are capable of using that capacity to their own end. And, of course, manipulating visions.
I think Dru's abilities come off as more sensitivity and feeling, like Cassie's than the painful experience of the visions. The pain makes me think of a message, along with Lorne's way of talking about the visions in That Vision Thing in s3.
But it's another ambiguity, yay! :)
I wonder if Cordy didn't sense Connor's kidnapping since she was out of town? Maybe there's something about physical proximity.
But Doyle sensed Buffy being in danger in Sunnydale all the way from Los Angeles, so I think it's not physical proximity so much as Jasmine clamping down. Or the powers not informing Cordelia since they didn't want it stopped?
My other s3 thing, randomly, is that I think the prophecy Angel would kill Connor came completely true, even the cranky hamburger's version of it - Angel did kill Connor. It just wasn't permanent death. Heh.
but I do think Jasmine wanted Wesley out of the picture and did her best to make that happen. I hardly think the Lilah-specific bits were all her though. (Random sidenote: it's from the Weslah 'shippers [among others] that we get the whole "Angel/Cordy was totally made up by Jasmine!" thing when it's more canon that the whole Wes/Lilah thing was made up b Jasmine.)
I think Skip way overstates the power Jasmine had before taking human form. She could push things, she must have had the power to protect Connor or put in motion the powers that were doing so, but. I doubt she got Lilah to fall on Wesley's dick, to put it bluntly.
I love Wes/Lilah a lot, but I do think Angel and Cordelia were pushed together by forces that weren't them along with being attracted to each other.
And I think Jasmine wanted Angelus running free, making trouble under her direction to distract AI - fear of Wesley and Fred and all of them - and then to abet her rise before she offed him. This is my theory this week.
And you know, Jasmine arc confusing, sure, but I just adore it so much. I lie back and drink it in. Add in that I heart heart crazy prone to failure and bad immoral choices Connor, s4 is my favorite.
I do tend to think Joss says in commentaries = canon, but then another writer in commentary says all of s4 happens in the space of 3 weeks and that just doesn't work with the Buffy x-overs so I choose to ignore it sometimes, clearly. It's canon when it's not wrong. Heh. :)
no subject