a thought or seven on Wes/Fred
Dec. 1st, 2004 12:19 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
wisdomeagleFirst, I found Joss/Alexis fic. It wasn't very good, and the Joss-->Alexis UST was really a sideline to the AD/DB smut, which I just skimmed, but... Joss-->Alexis UST? Never a bad thing. *is sick*
And this picture of ASH, Alexis Denisof, and Alyson Hannigan is SO CUTE OMG. !
Second, Wes/Fred
[spoilers through "Not Fade Away," and how I love being able to say that!]
So, I finally dove into the Jossverse fandom headfirst, and discovered just how not popular this pairing was. And not like Chi/D'Argo, where fandom is just sorta "eh" about it. People hate Wes/Fred. And people hate Fred, especially S5.
And people who do 'ship them, well... hearts and flowers and snuggles and yum.
It seems to be a fandom divided into Wes/Lilah shippers and Wes/Fred shippers, and here I am in the middle loving both. And loving them in canon.
Now, weirdly, I didn't see Wes-->Fred till it became canon in "Billy," and I really thought the Fred-->Wes in "Smile Time" was forced to happen too quickly, but that is not their fault, so one can just pretend.
See, much as "Not Fade Away" left me wanting to read and write the happiest, fluffiest Wes/Fred I could, I think what really curls my toes is the S4 Wes/Fred that is Dark and Wrong and Should Not Be. In a sense, it hits the same kink that Willow/Giles does. It's about darkness and about power and about wrong love that should not be. About intelligence and idealism and about all the things I really love about het.
First, of course, it's about sameness, enough sameness to be plausible. They've got shared interests in science, shared abilities. They're the thinkers, the intelligentsia of Angel Investigations. As![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
gvambat says, on paper, they're perfect together.
And then? Then there's enough difference to make it sexy. For me, this is about power, and about protection. At the beginning of S3, Fred is looking for a protector, a hero. She's spent five years in Pylea, and she wants to feel safe. She falls for Angel, the most alpha of the males around her, and then for Gunn, who's also big and strong and protective. Not to say that Wesley isn't! But Fred doesn't see him in that way. In "Fredless," she tells her parents, "Angel's the champion, and Wesley's the brains of the operation, Gunn's the muscle and Cordy's the heart, and I'm..." Nevermind that Gunn doesn't want to be reduced to the muscle, or that Wesley is clearly a lot more than just brain. That's how Fred sees them, and at that point in her life, it's muscle that she's looking for.
(Sidenote: when I was writing my Fred/Tara, I had difficulty writing Fred as alpha enough in her own right, pre-Pylea, to be able to be the dominant figure in any relationship. Pylea didn't make her weak, but it did make her needy.)
And they will not. Ever. Recover from "Billy." Which makes it one of my favorite episodes for the pairing, because hello? Broken!Wesley? Mmm.
Why does Wesley love Fred? Why does he want to be her protector, her alpha male, her knight in shining armor? Well, because that's always been in Wesley's character. He plays the hero with Virginia, he wants to be able to save Lilah. And he wants to be Fred's protector.
Thing is, Fred doesn't want Wes to be her protector. When she needs protection, she looks for it elsewhere, and by the beginning of S5, she's feeling strong enough and confident enough in her own right and doesn't need protection, but Wesley still wants to, and that leads to badness.
The problem is, Fred has been Wesley's Absolute Unattainable for far too long. He's more than idealized her; he's made her into perfection, into more than perfect, into... well, he's obsessed with her, with the idea of her, and regardless of how you interpret that, it's there. And real. And very, very unhealthy.
Wesley/Fred is about the darkness is both of them. It shouldn't be, but that's what it becomes, because S4 Wesley is teh_darkness. It's the darkness that Fred turns to in "Supersymmetry," and it's that darkness that Angelus tells Gunn Fred is drawn to... and be what he may, Angelus is a good judge of character.
I love that Fred's feelings for Wesley in S4 shouldn't be. That she's conflicted and confused and is attracted to him yet repelled by him, especially after finding out what he did with Lilah. I love her response to him kissing her in "Soulless." I love everything about that scene in "Soulless." Because it is wrong. Because Fred wants to be swallowed up by the darkness, and because it's infidelity, and because Wesley wants to worship her and to own her.
The scene where Wesley fucks Lilah dressed as Fred is one of my favorite Wes/Fred scenes. Because Wesley is a kinky little bitch, and because he wants Fred, and because he's got the whole virgin/whore thing going on, and because them negotiating their sexualities would, I suspect, find that they are totally incompatible, or at least that Fred would be profoundly unsettled by the depths of Wesley's need. (Which doesn't mean she wouldn't share it.)
Two things that bug me about Wes/Fred in canon:
1) It's all about Wesley. Fred's point of view is almost entirely non-existent. We don't see it in S3, because they're doing the whole love triangle thing, and if we knew who Fred liked better, it would spoil the surprise. And we don't get it in S5, because they didn't know till too late, so Fred's "growing feelings for Wesley" take place over the course of about half an episode.
2) The mind-wipe in "Home" paste-s off the dark intensity of S4, which makes the consummation of the 'ship less, well... less there, less wonderfully tragic, less, dare I say... beautiful? Because it's not the characters who've had these complicated, conflicting feelings for each other since the beginning of S3.
But there's so much I love. I love the awkward hug in "Fredless" because it is awkward, because despite the closeness and the friendship and the very much they have in common, there's always this discomfort with each other, always this uncertainty.
I love Wes's encounter with jealousy in "Waiting in the Wings," and I love Fred coming to him in "Supersymmetry" and I love Lilah dressing up like Fred and I love the kiss in "Soulless" and I love that they break up Fred/Gunn, which was a Good Thing (the 'ship, not the breaking up of it) and that Wesley cannot possibly give Fred what she needs, and that Fred herself is not what Wesley really wants.
And I love it, dammit. I love it cute, love it tragic, love it sweet, love it So Very Romantic that it makes half of fandom want to throw up.
I think Wes/Fred in canon (at least in parts of canon) is the dark twistedness that I was into with Daniel/Sam awhile ago: the obsession, the scary psycho stalkerness, the love that is real but broken.
But on an entirely different note? I forgot the very best line in S7 Buffy!
Willow: See Giles? Scythe does matter.
*ded*
I'm going to totally fail my oral presentation this afternoon. Ph34r my total ineptitude.
And this picture of ASH, Alexis Denisof, and Alyson Hannigan is SO CUTE OMG. !
Second, Wes/Fred
[spoilers through "Not Fade Away," and how I love being able to say that!]
So, I finally dove into the Jossverse fandom headfirst, and discovered just how not popular this pairing was. And not like Chi/D'Argo, where fandom is just sorta "eh" about it. People hate Wes/Fred. And people hate Fred, especially S5.
And people who do 'ship them, well... hearts and flowers and snuggles and yum.
It seems to be a fandom divided into Wes/Lilah shippers and Wes/Fred shippers, and here I am in the middle loving both. And loving them in canon.
Now, weirdly, I didn't see Wes-->Fred till it became canon in "Billy," and I really thought the Fred-->Wes in "Smile Time" was forced to happen too quickly, but that is not their fault, so one can just pretend.
See, much as "Not Fade Away" left me wanting to read and write the happiest, fluffiest Wes/Fred I could, I think what really curls my toes is the S4 Wes/Fred that is Dark and Wrong and Should Not Be. In a sense, it hits the same kink that Willow/Giles does. It's about darkness and about power and about wrong love that should not be. About intelligence and idealism and about all the things I really love about het.
First, of course, it's about sameness, enough sameness to be plausible. They've got shared interests in science, shared abilities. They're the thinkers, the intelligentsia of Angel Investigations. As
gvambat says, on paper, they're perfect together.And then? Then there's enough difference to make it sexy. For me, this is about power, and about protection. At the beginning of S3, Fred is looking for a protector, a hero. She's spent five years in Pylea, and she wants to feel safe. She falls for Angel, the most alpha of the males around her, and then for Gunn, who's also big and strong and protective. Not to say that Wesley isn't! But Fred doesn't see him in that way. In "Fredless," she tells her parents, "Angel's the champion, and Wesley's the brains of the operation, Gunn's the muscle and Cordy's the heart, and I'm..." Nevermind that Gunn doesn't want to be reduced to the muscle, or that Wesley is clearly a lot more than just brain. That's how Fred sees them, and at that point in her life, it's muscle that she's looking for.
(Sidenote: when I was writing my Fred/Tara, I had difficulty writing Fred as alpha enough in her own right, pre-Pylea, to be able to be the dominant figure in any relationship. Pylea didn't make her weak, but it did make her needy.)
And they will not. Ever. Recover from "Billy." Which makes it one of my favorite episodes for the pairing, because hello? Broken!Wesley? Mmm.
Why does Wesley love Fred? Why does he want to be her protector, her alpha male, her knight in shining armor? Well, because that's always been in Wesley's character. He plays the hero with Virginia, he wants to be able to save Lilah. And he wants to be Fred's protector.
Thing is, Fred doesn't want Wes to be her protector. When she needs protection, she looks for it elsewhere, and by the beginning of S5, she's feeling strong enough and confident enough in her own right and doesn't need protection, but Wesley still wants to, and that leads to badness.
The problem is, Fred has been Wesley's Absolute Unattainable for far too long. He's more than idealized her; he's made her into perfection, into more than perfect, into... well, he's obsessed with her, with the idea of her, and regardless of how you interpret that, it's there. And real. And very, very unhealthy.
Wesley/Fred is about the darkness is both of them. It shouldn't be, but that's what it becomes, because S4 Wesley is teh_darkness. It's the darkness that Fred turns to in "Supersymmetry," and it's that darkness that Angelus tells Gunn Fred is drawn to... and be what he may, Angelus is a good judge of character.
I love that Fred's feelings for Wesley in S4 shouldn't be. That she's conflicted and confused and is attracted to him yet repelled by him, especially after finding out what he did with Lilah. I love her response to him kissing her in "Soulless." I love everything about that scene in "Soulless." Because it is wrong. Because Fred wants to be swallowed up by the darkness, and because it's infidelity, and because Wesley wants to worship her and to own her.
The scene where Wesley fucks Lilah dressed as Fred is one of my favorite Wes/Fred scenes. Because Wesley is a kinky little bitch, and because he wants Fred, and because he's got the whole virgin/whore thing going on, and because them negotiating their sexualities would, I suspect, find that they are totally incompatible, or at least that Fred would be profoundly unsettled by the depths of Wesley's need. (Which doesn't mean she wouldn't share it.)
Two things that bug me about Wes/Fred in canon:
1) It's all about Wesley. Fred's point of view is almost entirely non-existent. We don't see it in S3, because they're doing the whole love triangle thing, and if we knew who Fred liked better, it would spoil the surprise. And we don't get it in S5, because they didn't know till too late, so Fred's "growing feelings for Wesley" take place over the course of about half an episode.
2) The mind-wipe in "Home" paste-s off the dark intensity of S4, which makes the consummation of the 'ship less, well... less there, less wonderfully tragic, less, dare I say... beautiful? Because it's not the characters who've had these complicated, conflicting feelings for each other since the beginning of S3.
But there's so much I love. I love the awkward hug in "Fredless" because it is awkward, because despite the closeness and the friendship and the very much they have in common, there's always this discomfort with each other, always this uncertainty.
I love Wes's encounter with jealousy in "Waiting in the Wings," and I love Fred coming to him in "Supersymmetry" and I love Lilah dressing up like Fred and I love the kiss in "Soulless" and I love that they break up Fred/Gunn, which was a Good Thing (the 'ship, not the breaking up of it) and that Wesley cannot possibly give Fred what she needs, and that Fred herself is not what Wesley really wants.
And I love it, dammit. I love it cute, love it tragic, love it sweet, love it So Very Romantic that it makes half of fandom want to throw up.
I think Wes/Fred in canon (at least in parts of canon) is the dark twistedness that I was into with Daniel/Sam awhile ago: the obsession, the scary psycho stalkerness, the love that is real but broken.
But on an entirely different note? I forgot the very best line in S7 Buffy!
Willow: See Giles? Scythe does matter.
*ded*
I'm going to totally fail my oral presentation this afternoon. Ph34r my total ineptitude.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-02 05:07 am (UTC)*except the very last one*
*because roommate totally won't*
*waves an "Ari Kicks Ass!" sign*
*loves Ari*
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-02 07:03 pm (UTC)*thinks probably didn't fail, but..*
*loves roommate*
Maybe I can post this today....
Date: 2004-12-02 03:11 pm (UTC)Speaking of fucked up Wes obsessions, are you reading
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-02 09:56 pm (UTC)*adds that to list of things to do when not overwhelmed with school.*
Less than a week till break!