the obligatory back to school post
Nov. 29th, 2004 08:33 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
wisdomeagleWell, LJ is on skip=375 and no sign of catching up anytime soon. Plus I have to hand in the papers I didn't even finish yet because I just got back around half an hour ago.
Thanksgiving with the very gay relatives was all right. I love my family, but the really overt sexuality, mixed with wine (the first year we've had it as a regular thing) was kind of unnerving. My oldest two cousins have strong personalities and sort of dominated the entire dinner
My flight was delayed, long story short, I spent 24 hours on the road. I'm still groggy from Dramamine, and I have to write a paper tonight.
We finished the Jossverse! Feel free not to cut-tag for my benefit anymore.
[Spoilers through "Chosen" and "Not Fade Away"]
I must be quick about this, so let's go bullet-point on your ass.
Things I Loved About Buffy
-Andrew, especially "Storyteller"
-Giles not being evil at all
-Xander, everything about Xander
-Scoobies
-going back to the beginning in "Chosen" with the four of them standing around...
-Faith
-Angel coming back and the Bangel and squee.
-Xander/Anya. We were praying for them to work out
-Wood, especially in "Lies My Parents Told Me"
Things I Loathed About Buffy S7
-Number one here is Kennedy
-Anya's death scene. No closure whatsoever. Just, oops, she's dead. How sad
-The severe lack of real Giles. Quirks != characterization.
-Spike. He was good in places, but I miss the snark! I miss the sarcasm!
-Xander/Anya not riding off into the sunset together
-Blowing up Sunnydale and leaving so much unresolved. It felt wrong, the ending
Thing I Loathed About Angel S5
-That it got cancelled and they couldn't be told about it so the last half goes way too fast
-"The Girl In Question" Spuffy and Bangel really didn't fit into the real arc of the season. Annoying
-too much episodic stuff at the beginning
-the throw-away line about Spike and Angel being intimate "that one time." They'd been feeding the slashers all season with so much subtext, we really didn't need that. And I'm sure they've been together way more than once...
-Andrew. His characterization, especially in "The Girl in Question" just doesn't mesh with S7 characterization.
-Connor showing up again in NFA. I liked the end of "Origin" with its ambiguity.
Things I Loved About Angel S5
-Wesley got broken again! *squee*
-Lorne. Real Lorne characterization, especially towards the end of the season
-dealing with the mindwipe and making Wesley suffer more for it.
-"Smile Time"! I must confess, I had these spoilers that there was a character called Puppet!Angel and was convinced they were huge, arc-related spoilers about how Angel got manipulated by someone, like W+H, for a whole arc and wasn't in control of himself at all and was really worried that there'd be a reveal and it would be awful and I was all spoiled and... Puppet!Angel. So adorable! *squee*
-Wesley/Fred
-"A Hole in the World" and "Shells." I almost cried at the end of "Shells." You go away to grad school, leaving family behind, so happy, so optimistic, so hopeful, and... *cries*
-I really liked the ambivalence with Connor at the end of "Origin" and hated that they made it not so ambivalent in NFA. Which reminds me...
-"You're Welcome". Cordelia. Real Cordelia. Frelling awesome.
Not Fade Away
-Loved Lorne
-Loved Spike and the poetry
-Loved Gunn, and Anne
-Loved Wesley, and Illyria
-Loved going back to the beginning
-Really liked having Anne in there, and knowing that someone is still fighting the good fight
-I'm still mulling over the ending, but I liked it, I think. Makes me want to kill things, but I liked it.
And finally...
When Wesley died, I cried. And I do not cry at TV. I really don't think there's anything else to say about that. I'm a hopeless Wes/Fred 'shipper, even though I think Fred's feelings for him got sort of pastede on, and I love, love, love Wesley SO MUCH. And Fred. OMG. Love. So much love!
Thanksgiving with the very gay relatives was all right. I love my family, but the really overt sexuality, mixed with wine (the first year we've had it as a regular thing) was kind of unnerving. My oldest two cousins have strong personalities and sort of dominated the entire dinner
My flight was delayed, long story short, I spent 24 hours on the road. I'm still groggy from Dramamine, and I have to write a paper tonight.
We finished the Jossverse! Feel free not to cut-tag for my benefit anymore.
[Spoilers through "Chosen" and "Not Fade Away"]
I must be quick about this, so let's go bullet-point on your ass.
Things I Loved About Buffy
-Andrew, especially "Storyteller"
-Giles not being evil at all
-Xander, everything about Xander
-Scoobies
-going back to the beginning in "Chosen" with the four of them standing around...
-Faith
-Angel coming back and the Bangel and squee.
-Xander/Anya. We were praying for them to work out
-Wood, especially in "Lies My Parents Told Me"
Things I Loathed About Buffy S7
-Number one here is Kennedy
-Anya's death scene. No closure whatsoever. Just, oops, she's dead. How sad
-The severe lack of real Giles. Quirks != characterization.
-Spike. He was good in places, but I miss the snark! I miss the sarcasm!
-Xander/Anya not riding off into the sunset together
-Blowing up Sunnydale and leaving so much unresolved. It felt wrong, the ending
Thing I Loathed About Angel S5
-That it got cancelled and they couldn't be told about it so the last half goes way too fast
-"The Girl In Question" Spuffy and Bangel really didn't fit into the real arc of the season. Annoying
-too much episodic stuff at the beginning
-the throw-away line about Spike and Angel being intimate "that one time." They'd been feeding the slashers all season with so much subtext, we really didn't need that. And I'm sure they've been together way more than once...
-Andrew. His characterization, especially in "The Girl in Question" just doesn't mesh with S7 characterization.
-Connor showing up again in NFA. I liked the end of "Origin" with its ambiguity.
Things I Loved About Angel S5
-Wesley got broken again! *squee*
-Lorne. Real Lorne characterization, especially towards the end of the season
-dealing with the mindwipe and making Wesley suffer more for it.
-"Smile Time"! I must confess, I had these spoilers that there was a character called Puppet!Angel and was convinced they were huge, arc-related spoilers about how Angel got manipulated by someone, like W+H, for a whole arc and wasn't in control of himself at all and was really worried that there'd be a reveal and it would be awful and I was all spoiled and... Puppet!Angel. So adorable! *squee*
-Wesley/Fred
-"A Hole in the World" and "Shells." I almost cried at the end of "Shells." You go away to grad school, leaving family behind, so happy, so optimistic, so hopeful, and... *cries*
-I really liked the ambivalence with Connor at the end of "Origin" and hated that they made it not so ambivalent in NFA. Which reminds me...
-"You're Welcome". Cordelia. Real Cordelia. Frelling awesome.
Not Fade Away
-Loved Lorne
-Loved Spike and the poetry
-Loved Gunn, and Anne
-Loved Wesley, and Illyria
-Loved going back to the beginning
-Really liked having Anne in there, and knowing that someone is still fighting the good fight
-I'm still mulling over the ending, but I liked it, I think. Makes me want to kill things, but I liked it.
And finally...
When Wesley died, I cried. And I do not cry at TV. I really don't think there's anything else to say about that. I'm a hopeless Wes/Fred 'shipper, even though I think Fred's feelings for him got sort of pastede on, and I love, love, love Wesley SO MUCH. And Fred. OMG. Love. So much love!
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 02:13 am (UTC)*wonders about self sometimes*
Point of disagreement, though.
Number one here is Kennedy
Can't agree. Number one is Anya. They killed Anya, and did nothing with it. She got so much more of a death scene in "Selfless", and she wasn't even dead. And we could even be pretty sure she wasn't dead. And then Chosen, and...nothing. *cries*
Kennedy is two. Or maybe Willow/Kennedy is two, and Kennedey would be three.
And a few additions to list of loathes (or perhaps should be dislikes, not all strong enough to be loathes)
-Too many potentials, not enough Scoobies, not enough team. And far too many potentials.
-And the way they they portrayed Chosen, as if it were a good plan.
-Buffy. I mean, it makes perfect character sense, but damn it, she gets annoying. And they just barely got to the point where I actually liked her...I don't really get why they did it, in a meta sense.
-Willow/Tara getting swept under the rug and forgotten.
-The breaking up of the Scoobies in a throwaway line in S5.
-Opening credits with characters who showed up in the last five minutes.
-Christian Kane didn't sing. *pouts*
Andrew. His characterization, especially in "The Girl in Question" just doesn't mesh with S7 characterization.
Agreed about "The Girl in Question", but I thought "Damage" was pretty decent. I mean, penny! And 80% more manly! :p
Anyway, thoughts?
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 02:50 am (UTC)Okay, it was a flawed plan, and i was thrilled that they dealt with that in "Damage" (i agree about the Andrew characterization in that ep, btw) but i thought it was a pretty damned good plan. ("The Gift," in contrast, was beautiful and tragic and a valiant effort at writing themselves out of a corner, but i kept screaming "THAT DOESN'T WORK! All you've proved is that now you both have to die.")
I wasn't pleased with the idea of having Willow move on into a new relationship (and thought Kennedy was a particularly bad choice) but i thought "The Killer in Me" had some great moments of dealing with that.
Too many Potentials, agreed. My big beef was the introduction and Kit and Carlos (known to fandom as the Scrappy Gang) and then dropping them after a single episode.
"-The breaking up of the Scoobies in a throwaway line in S5."
Do you mean Andrew giving us the rundown of where everyone is? Despite the fact that it confirmed that Willow and Kennedy hadn't broken up (yet), i liked it. They knew they were gonna have to go and train these new Potentials, or at least track them down and let them know what the deal was, so i fully expected them to split up.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 06:45 am (UTC)It was flawed because it introduced a lot of very young and occasionally psychotic vampire slayers, but aside from that, I just don't think it was a great plan. And they’re usually slightly better at planning than the L.A. gang.
They had 30ish slayers against thousands of (previously) almost impossible to kill uber!vamps, plus the First, and the rest of the Hellmouth, which has been a serious enemy on its own ("Prophecy Girl", "The Zeppo"). It was suicide.
The only way I could buy it is if they knew exactly what the amulet did, and were throwing their lives away as a delaying action, but I don't buy it. (They've been down in the Hellmouth for quite a while, and Spike's still talking about "whatever this thing does.")
I wasn't pleased with the idea of having Willow move on into a new relationship (and thought Kennedy was a particularly bad choice) but i thought "The Killer in Me" had some great moments of dealing with that.
Agreed, certainly. But after one kiss Willow's grief, not to mention some rather complex psychological issues, never need to be mentioned again? And she shouldn't have cried about it all season, but it was completely ignored, which does a disservice to the ship, to Willow, and to the rest of the Scoobies.
They knew they were gonna have to go and train these new Potentials, or at least track them down and let them know what the deal was, so i fully expected them to split up.
Maybe they were going to have to, but still...the whole show, when you get down to it, it wasn't about the monsters or the superpowers or the fights or the "high school is hell" metaphor. It was about team. It was about the friends that stick with you and grow up with you, fight and die with you. And they made it, core four plus a few, they made it to the end of Buffy: the Vampire Slayer.
Using the Season 5 to split that up just feels cheap. It's like bringing a character on as a guest star and then killing them. The death will not and cannot be the focus, even of an episode--it's not their show. They made us love these characters; killing them casually wouldn't be fair to the characters, or the audience, and it doesn't make sense from a dramatic point of view. It's the same with relationships. For seven years, the core four was the most important and most constant thing. If the show went on and dealt with it, fine. They started that way in Season 4, and they didn't do too badly at it...I think it would’ve suffer for it, but they could do it right. They can't on a cameo appearance of a minor character, and they don't even try. It feels kind of like saying "Buffy's in Rome...Giles died of a heart attack, so she's running everything now." You could probably get a decent episode out of it, but it's it’s a cheap shot to toss it off like that.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 07:07 am (UTC)Nooooooooooooooooooo!
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-01 12:26 am (UTC)I definitely agree that there needed to be more S7 dealing with the Tara aftermath.
Talking about the theme of the Scooby Gang coming together/staying together, it's interesting because i recently watched OMWF for the umpteenth time and the two times when the gang comes together ("I've Got a Theory" and "Walk through the Fire") i loved so much and it felt so right... and yet i am so okay with them splitting up post-"Chosen." I think in large part because i don't think of it as "splitting up" per se, but rather moving to different geographical locations but knowing that they are strong enough that their bonds will endure. They are grown-ups. They have survived the hell that is high school/Sunnydale not only alive but with their friendships still intact. The ending shot is of them all standing together. They are each alone with their thoughts, their histories, and their plans, but they are also (still) together. And Giles mentions Cleveland and more than just a throwaway joke line it is a recognition that there is still more to be done ("There are no happy endings because nothing ever ends") and who knows what the future will bring, but they have survived and they are still together.
My interpretation of the S5 rundown of what happened to everyone was them saying "We know that you Angel gang/viewers care about these people/characters" and that you know their lives didn't end with "Chosen" and that there are more stories to tell and you want to know what's happening and we honor that. Okay, "honor" gives the writers a bit too much dramatic credit; maybe "acknowledge." But i really liked that they recognized that of course Spike and Angel would want to know what had happened [that there were Angel gang characters with legitimate interest in the fates and futures of the Sunnydale gang -- at least part of it -- made the news about said gang not feel so much like a guest star kind of thing for me], what was going on, and more than that that the viewers wondered... that they still cared about the characters.
/waxing poetic
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-03 05:15 am (UTC)Yeah, they weren't really sure they would win. But that doesn't make it better, that makes it worse. If they go in and die (very, very likely), they accomplish nothing. So, why do it at all? Wait, do research, try to find some plan that isn't 99.9999998% suicide. Or do the spell first, build an army of several hundred or thousand slayers, and they they might have a fighting chance.
As it was, it was pure suicide. "Not Fade Away" was as well, but they did have a fighting chance of taking the Circle with them. In "Chosen", they had virtually no chance of even denting the army before they all died.
About the separations--yes, they are still in contact, but they're on different continents, which will inevitably and drastically change the character of the relationships. I really wish since they couldn't deal with it, they'd just left it open to interpretation. Or maybe they could've said that they're moving around a lot but all based out of the same city.
*sigh* [/closet OT4 romantic]
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 03:41 am (UTC)Definately too many Potentials/not enough team.
I didn't actually mind Buffy in S7. I mean, yes, she was annoying and whatnot, but I think it did make character sense and... I dunno. Certainly didn't loathe her.
I don't think they really forgot W/T. I mean, yes, they did, but it's... they can't have her weeping and grieving all the time over it? And I think having Kennedy there helps her to be in a less dark place. Which is good. Sort of. And grief 'n' angst can be overdone, as the Jossverse has shown us...
"Damage" was indeed decent. <3 I think it's the throw-away characterization at the end of "Girl in Question" that irks me... it's like breaking up the Scoobies off-screen. If you're going to do major character shifting, at least have the decency to show us.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 06:49 am (UTC)It doesn't!?!?! *gasp* *revises one's theory of paper writing*
I didn't actually mind Buffy in S7. I mean, yes, she was annoying and whatnot, but I think it did make character sense and... I dunno. Certainly didn't loathe her.
*nods* Hence the loathing is too strong a word.
I don't think they really forgot W/T. I mean, yes, they did, but it's... they can't have her weeping and grieving all the time over it?
True. But it really should've gotten at least one mention after that. By anyone, really...if it's Willow, or Xander being concerned, or even Kennedy being clueless...just something to let us know that Tara's not forgotten the minute Willow finds a new girlfriend.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 07:07 am (UTC)And dammit, this paper is crap and I haven't cited a single source. *facepalm* I hate research papers!
See, we don't in fact share a brain. At least not all of one.
Date: 2004-11-30 02:44 am (UTC)I really liked Wes/Fred when Fred first arrived, and then after "Supersymmetry" i was really interested in the possibility of them bonding over the moral grey, but the "Fred is the One True Light of My Life from time immemorial and for all eternity" was so horrendously Mary-Sue-ish (and contributed to the group-bonding around her as she died feeling Mary-Sue-ish also). Loved Illyria, though, and the Wes/Illyria dynamic including the Wes/Fred past that haunted it was really interesting.
I hardcore suspected what got verified in NFA re: Connor in "Origin," so i was pleased to be verified.
I was okay with Anya not getting a dramatic death scene. The moment when Andrew tells Xander i found really tender and powerful and touching and i was okay with that private moment of Xander!grief.
I was okay with the blowing up of Sunnydale. TheFirstEvil mostly did not live up to its hype, but given the bigness of the end, it felt right that the city had to cave in to stop the army of UberVamps.
the throw-away line about Spike and Angel being intimate "that one time." They'd been feeding the slashers all season with so much subtext, we really didn't need that. And I'm sure they've been together way more than once...
Word.
My big episodic beef was actually at the end of the season, when even though they knew they had to wrap up the series we got Spike & Angel: The Snarky Banter Show, Episode 9173265387.
Except for Wes choosing to die in the arms of a lie, i loved all of NFA. (Well and i was also pissed at the killing of Lindsey, though i can understand Angel's thought process. And it was Lorne who ripped my heart out in that scene. Though Lindsey was definitely tragic and gay.)
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 03:54 am (UTC)Well, yes but. (And OMG if Fred is Joss's Mary Sue then Joss really wants to sleep with Wesley THUS CONFIRMING my Joss/Alexis love. Uhm yeah.)
I like Wes/Fred in spite of myself. Thought it was forced in "Billy," and then felt heartbreak in "Waiting in the Wings," and then loved it when it was dark and wrong in "Soulless," and perhaps the only thing I found wrong with it was Fred requiting it in the end.
As for the group-bonding... I didn't think it was forced except for on Spike's part. I mean, Gunn does love her. Wesley does love her. You can't do away with those. Lorne has identified with her quite obviously since "Fredless." Angel cares about all of his people, and the connection with Cordy is obvious. Spike's they obviously did force at the beginning of the season, but they did at least set it up ahead of time...
And I think Wesley's overly dramatic hearts and flowers love of Fred is not OOC. He's just, finally, gotten what he's wanted for ages, certainly since "Billy." He wants her in ways that are sometimes cruel and sometimes wrong and often jealous, but always all-absorbing. I don't know that they were right for each other, or that it could have lasted, or if Wesley would ever have been able to see her as human again after seeing her as the Absolute Unattainable for so many years, but I do love it with all the hopeless romanticism my heart can hold.
And dammit, the scene in NFA made me cry. My love is pure.
My big episodic beef was actually at the end of the season, when even though they knew they had to wrap up the series we got Spike & Angel: The Snarky Banter Show, Episode 9173265387.
I'm assuming you mean "The Girl in Question"? I bitched about that above. Although "Why We Fight" also was kinda random and thrown in. And submarines? WWII? *bored now*
I was more pissed with the blowing up of Sunnydale on a meta level... it's just that I'll miss it, dammit. It's iconic. It's been there since the beginning and it's just... I don't want the show to end. I don't want to know that this is the end. And they didn't pull it off as well as NFA, the ending thing. Or something. Babble. Medethics paper is calling to me...
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 04:46 am (UTC)'cause it's true*I totally shipped Spike/Fred from early S5, so i actually had little problem with that. I didn't have a particular problem with any of them being written as having love for her, it was just the "Love for Fred above all else" that felt rather Mary-Sue-ish and as i said, i totally grant that that was heavily influenced by the hardcore Mary-Sue-ing i felt was going on with Wes.
I am saving your paragraph on Wes' love for Fred because it makes a lot of sense. I applaud you. I think one big problem i had with his waxing "You were my pure true one love since the day I met you" is that it degrades the Wes/Lilah relationship. Yes, the specter of Fred was very much there (though i was generally not a fan of it being there, because i was really interested in the dynamics of the Wes/Lilah relationship on its own merits -- which now that i think of it makes an interesting contrast with what i said above about the Wes/Illyria relationship) but Wes and Lilah were so right for each other in a lot of ways, even though there was so much wrongness and brokenness in that relationship, and saying that Wes was always all about Fred takes away so many of the layers that make Wes/Lilah more than just "Wes is morally grey and having hot sex." Hmm, you're making me conflicted about my initial thoughts (which is a good thing). Also, rereading your paragraph to try to get my brain back on track, the word "all-absorbing" sticks out at me. The idea terrifies me, frankly, and that may well be one reason why i don't want to agree with it. (Which isn't to say that you're wrong, necessarily, just that it discomfits me.)
Oh, and Wes' death was definitely sad, even if the fake!Fred thing marred it for me. (I didn't cry, but i don't have your mad love, and i cry at scads of things so it's not like i was under quota or anything.)
"Spike & Angel: The Snarky Banter Show, Episode 9173265387" wasn't so much referring to any particular episode but just the fact that their banter got so much screentime when there was actual plot stuff to be dealt with. I actually rather liked "Why We Fight." Re: "The Girl in Question"... I was happy with the Spike/Buffy/Angel closure we got over on Buffy so i was less than thrilled with bringing it up again on Angel but i could understand the idea that the two of them still didn't have closure [especially since so much of the fighting between the two of them is over women they feel they both have claim to -- and i could babble about the women being symbolic of the larger power struggles between Spike and Angel and where they feel they fit in the world and la dee dah but i totally don't have the brain power for that at the moment and should be writing SOPs etc. right now anyway].
I would put the ending of "Chosen" approximately on par with NFA, but that may ultimately come down to a gut feeling personal preference thing and i'm not about to fight you over it.
Oh, and i'm gonna agree with
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 06:19 am (UTC)Well, I like Wes/Lilah too, and I do think it becomes more than just the hot sex, although that is how it starts. But they do care about each other, more than they want to admit.
But Fred is always there. Lilah is jealous of her, Lilah dresses up like her, Lilah knows about it. And no, I suppose Wesley isn't always all about Fred, but she is an obsession. I think he comes to love Lilah against his intentions, against his inclination.
And I think Wes/Lilah were right for each other on one level and Wes/Fred on another, just as I think of the Fred/Wes\Fred/Gunn triangle as summed up as their "read the same magazines" "laugh at the same jokes" dialogue.
We don't know how Wes/Fred would have worked, even if it could have. I think that Wesley's two and a half year obsession with Fred wouldn't help matters, but they do have a common ground, and they might've been able to make it work. But.
Um, I'm not sure if I'm making much sense, or what point I'm trying to argue, but yes.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 06:36 am (UTC)Which is pretty much what i think, too, so yay :)
[I agree with other stuff you said in the comment as well, but that line pretty much sums it up.]
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 06:55 am (UTC)But Fred is always there. Lilah is jealous of her, Lilah dresses up like her, Lilah knows about it. And no, I suppose Wesley isn't always all about Fred, but she is an obsession.
Exactly.
I think he comes to love Lilah against his intentions, against his inclination.
And possibly only really comming out after she's dead?
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 07:06 am (UTC)And possibly only really comming out after she's dead?
Welllll... yes, but I think the scene in the hallway at the end of Habeaus Corpses is, well... one of those "I love you"s that doesn't get said. Maybe he doesn't want to admit to himself that he does, but he feels like *something* ought to be said. Doesn't say it, but there is something to be said.
My season seven thoughts, for what they're worth
Date: 2004-11-30 03:41 pm (UTC)The First was the stupidest villain ever, which meant that season seven was already starting at a disadvantage. I'm not convinced that they defeated it because I was never sure what it really wanted. And the plotholes! My God, the plotholes in this season! I've addressed those plotholes in my own post because they got too long for a comment.
With a plot that sucked eggs, Joss needed to focus on characters in order to save the season; instead, he trashed them. I hated the way Anya lost all her development. She started out as a one-dimensional character, became SO much more, and then turned into a bitter crone in the last season. What happened to Xander's passion? He used to be the first to pull Buffy back, and suddenly he's content to do nothing but fix windows? Willow loved Oz and Tara so very much, and now she's willing to jump in bed with the first warm body that comes along? How could such a deep person suddenly be all about sex and very little else? And Giles suddenly loses all emotion? And I can't even start on how totally Buffy's character was trashed without spewing venom. GAH! The only characters I liked by the end of the season were Dawn, Faith and Andrew, and those were three I didn't particularly care for before this season!
Mostly, however, I hated how often writer's fiat was involved. The writers wanted Buffy to be right and so she was... even though she did no research all season and didn't listen to anyone except a creature that she knew to be under the control of the First for several months at least. Faith planned everything to a tee and got her ass handed to her; Buffy charged in, knocked over a lucky barrel, and had an instant victory handed to her. A story like that on the internet would wind up on Godawful fanfiction, but because it's Joss everyone bows down. Yeah, I'm bitter.
I didnt' want AtS series five because I was mad about CC's firing and JM's hiring. Also, by the end of season seven I was so sick of Spike that I simply couldn't bear to watch any more of him. However, I did keep up with spoilers compulsively, so know the rough storyline. It sounds like it was far superior to the last Buffy season, or at least better plotted. However, it does bother me that they wound up killing every single human cast member(Doyle, Cordelia, Fred, Wesley, Lindsey, Lilah) so they could have nothing but vampires and demons (Angel, Spike, Harmony, Lorne, Illyria). The idea that humans are weak and ineffectual is a FAR cry from Joss's origianal vision of Buffy as "take back the night" girl.
My take on Wes/Fred was that it was all about Wes: his obsession, his fantasy, his desire. He was so blinded by his mental image of Fred that he never really saw her. Also, Fred liked knowing that there was someone who worshipped her, and I think that's the reason she chose Gunn. She wanted to stay at a distance from Wes, a goddess that he couldn't touch. Her jealousy when she found out that Wes had been sleeping with Lilah really rankled me. As for comng together shortly before Fred's death? They never would have lasted because Fred couldn't have balanced on top of that pedestal forever.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 06:20 pm (UTC)I think I really liked the first half of the season and then it started to take a downhill turn around halfway through. Do we know when they found out it was definately and for real the last season?
Speaking of meta, I was under the impression that CC left because she wanted out, and they knew that from the beginning of S4 or so... is there other info out there?
S5 suffered drastically from the sudden bombshell they got from the WB in the middle, but on the whole I like it better than S7.
That's a good point about who's left alive at the end: I hadn't noticed that. To be fair, Gunn does make it to the end, although the liklihood that Illyria, Angel, Spike, and Gunn are about to die very soon is, well, close to 100%.
Wes/Fred is all about Wes, and I was complaining to Gvambat the other night that the show is really about the male characters 90% of the time. The love triangle is S3 is from Wes's and Gunn's pov, not from Fred's; we don't know what's going on in Fred's head because then we'd know how the triangle turned out. There are only occasional episodes that I'd say are really from Fred's pov, and even then, the focus is always on how the other characters react to her, not on her.
I think "Billy" was really the turning point for Wes and for Wes/Fred, and I think before then, it could have worked, but in the aftermath, Wesley got into a place where Fred became his Absolute Unattainable, a woman far, far too good for him.
Her jealousy when she found out that Wes had been sleeping with Lilah really rankled me.
Hmm... I suppose it isn't very fair, given that she's been keeping him at arm's length... her refusal to stand up to Angel and Gunn at the end of S3/beginning of S4 and tell them, "We need to go see Wesley NOW and make him not kill himself, 'kay?" is what annoys me most, but that's another rant altogether.
So her jealousy of Lilah isn't really fair, but I suppose it makes sense, especially since she's just starting to wonder if maybe she feels something for Wes... it struck me as a combination of jealousy and revulsion and a sort of reevaluation of who she thoguht Wesley was.
They never would have lasted because Fred couldn't have balanced on top of that pedestal forever.
Very true... I think by the middle of S5, all the baggage of the previous two years would prevent their ever being in a real relationship.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 07:07 pm (UTC)Speaking of meta, I was under the impression that CC left because she wanted out, and they knew that from the beginning of S4 or so... is there other info out there?
Mutant Enemy claims that CC wanted to go, but her personal website gave a slightly different story. She says she was fired, and from what she said I got the impression that it was over her weight. Joss thought she was too heavy... which may have had something to do with why she decided to do that gorgeous Playboy layout soon afterwards. Also, she was deeply critical of the saint!Cordy storyline and apparently Joss didn't like that.
I don't like Fred's jealousy of Lilah because she chose Gunn. The idea that she can choose somebody else but Wes is supposed to pine over her forever, that bothers me. Because there are real women like that, and they never turn out to be nice people once you get to know them.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-01 01:31 am (UTC)Creepy...
I don't like Fred's jealousy of Lilah because she chose Gunn. The idea that she can choose somebody else but Wes is supposed to pine over her forever, that bothers me. Because there are real women like that, and they never turn out to be nice people once you get to know them.
I know someone like that, but I don't think she's a bad person... just a jealous one. And jealousy isn't a good thing, but it's human.
Elsewhere in the Jossverse, Xander is protective of Willow/jealous of Oz despite having chosen Cordelia, Willow continues to be jealous of Cordelia through S2 even though she's with Oz, Buffy's jealous of Faith's relationship with Angel in S4/1 even though she's with Riley, Angel is jealous of Riley even though he is the one who ended things with Buffy...
Perhaps a closer parallel is Willow's reaction to the news that Xander slept with Faith in S3. She's jealous ("I don't like sharing my people") and also squicked 'cos, ew, Faith. And no, she doesn't really have a "right" to be jealous, because she chose to be with Oz rather than Xander (not that a relationship with Xander at that point would really be possible), but she still is... Admittedly the situation is not exactly the same, but I don't think it's fair to say her jealousy of Lilah makes Fred a bad person, though she is undoubtedly a flawed one.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-01 02:13 am (UTC)::boggle::
I'd heard (very unconfirmed) disputes about working hours and such...had not heard that.
Was that before or after pregnancy?
Re: My season seven thoughts, for what they're worth
Date: 2004-11-30 09:59 pm (UTC)In S5, they killed Cordy, who may or may not have been human at the time. They killed Fred, who definitly was. And then, in "Not Fade Away", the killed Wesley, Gunn, Lindsey, Spike, Illyria, and Angel. IF they didn't all die on screen, IMO it's pretty clear that they will be very soon. Harmony and Lorne survive, and they are both demons, but the important fact is that they're not fighters. They survived only because they didn't show up for the final battle.
Buffy had a "take back the night" motto, but Angel never really did. The night can't be taken back. It's worth it to fight the good fight, and minor battles can be won, but if they keep fighting to the end, it will be inevitably fatal.
Wow, wasn't that cheerful.
Re: My season seven thoughts, for what they're worth
Date: 2004-11-30 10:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-01 01:39 am (UTC)Besides which, shouldn't Spike and Angel be listed as "undecided" at the time of their death 'cos of Shanshu? :p
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-01 01:48 am (UTC)Oh yeah! :p
I think it relates to the way demons on Buffy are metaphors, while demons on Angel are just people.
Is a good point.
There's also something to saying that the demons, at least the ones that make it to "Not Fade Away", are the hardest to kill, and thus more likely to survive the individual kills where the odds are better. Don't think you can attribute it to writer bias, though.
Re: My season seven thoughts, for what they're worth
Date: 2004-11-30 10:55 pm (UTC)Her jealousy when she found out that Wes had been sleeping with Lilah really rankled me.
I didn't really see her reaction as predominetly jealous. A fair ammount of disgust, some disbelief, and a large helping of "how could you do this?" This is the person who ordered Cordy tortured and tried to kill Lorne. She's the personal face of their mortal enemy, and she's been playing with all their lives from day one. Fred knew Wesley had been hurt, but she'd never realized how broken he'd been. There was probably a component of jealousy there, but I thought it was mostly shock and disgust.
Re: My season seven thoughts, for what they're worth
Date: 2004-12-01 12:58 am (UTC)-Angel (demon) (died in "Not Fade Away")
-Cordelia (undecided) (Died in "You're Welcome")
-Doyle (demon) (died in "Hero")
-Wesley (human) (died in "Not Fade Away")
-Lindsey (human) (died in "Not Fade Away")
-Gunn (human) (died in "Not Fade Away")
-Darla (demon) (died in "Lullaby")
-Fred (human) (died in "Hole in the World")
-Lilah (human) (died in "Calvary")
-Connor (undecided) (survived)
-Lorne (demon) (survived)
-Jasmine (demon) (died in "Peace Out")
-Spike (demon) (died in "Not Fade Away")
-Illyria (demon) (died in "Not Fade Away")
-Harmony (demon) (survived)
Total: 8 demons, 5 humans, 2 undecideds.
Main cast: 6 demons, 3 humans, 2 undecideds.
Of the main cast:
Demons outnumber humans in early S1 and late S5. Season 3 ties if one counts Cordy as a demon. S4 swings with Connor. Early S5 ties.
Humans outnumber demons in late S1, and S2.
4 (67%) of the demons have died. All of them fall into the noble and self-sacrificing catagory.
3 (100%) of the humans have died. Two are noble and self-sacrificing and one falls into the stupid coincidence catagory.
1 (50%) of the undecideds died. Her death is both noble and self-sacrificing and a stupid coincidence.
By far the largest massacre was "Not Fade Away". Death toll: 2 humans, 3 demons
Survivors (all from the main cast): 2 demons, 1 undecided.
Of the villains (non-main cast):
Humans outnumber demons in S1, S2, and S5. They tie in S3 (Darla and Lilah) and S4 (Lilah and Jasmine).
2 (100%) humans and 2 (100%) demons die.
1 death (demon) could be seen as noble and self-sacrificing. The rest are all unintentional.
One (human) was murdered by the heroes.
One (human) was murdered by another villain. One (demon) died in a fight with our heroes.
None of them died in the same episode.
Overall:
6 demon fatalities, 5 human ones
S1: 4 humans, 2 demons, 1 demon fatality.
S2: 6 humans, 3 demons, no fatalities.
S3: 4 humans, 3 demons, 2 undecides, 1 demon fatality.
S4: 4 humans, 3 demons, 2 undecides, 1 demon fataility, one human fatality.
S5: 4 humans, 5 demons, 2 undecides. 4 human fatalities, 3 demon fatalities, and Cordy.
Humans outnumber demons in every season but 5, but 3 and 4 could swing depending on Cordy and Connor.
Wow, it's kinda like an election. Except fannish. And really depressing.
*sigh* [/geek] Back to physics, I suppose.
*huggles roommate*
Date: 2004-12-01 01:36 am (UTC)I might want to include Holtz on there, and possibly Justine and Sajean... and hey, Justine survived.
Would you call Holtz's a noble and self-sacrificing death? Skewed sense of nobility, but....
And I suppose Holland Manners (human, died "Reunion", eaten by another villain), Linwood (human, died "Deep Down," murdered by another villain), Gavin (cardboard, died "Habeaus Corpses", killed by a villain), and the Beast (demon, died "Salvage" (?), killed by another villain), don't count because they're boring?
*loveses roommate's geekishness*
Re: *huggles roommate*
Date: 2004-12-01 01:55 am (UTC)Didn't include most of them because they weren't really the main villain, or at least not the one we see...Holland Manners was there, but Lindsey was the important one, for example. (I was sorely tempted to put Gavin on the list just so I could squee about him being dead, though. :p)
Holtz comes closest...kinda breezed by him because I wanted to get Lilah in as S3 villain. *sniffles* *apologizes*
*thinks*
No, I don't think it's noble and self-sacrificing. He didn't die to save people or help them or stop the forces of evil, he died to inspire Connor to vengence. If he really thought Angel was a danger and this was the only way to eliminate him, than maybe, but Connor would've done it if he'd just asked, so...no, I don't think so.
*Roommate's geekishness huggles roommate*
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-30 06:19 pm (UTC)Drempt about Puppet!Angel last night. Actually, Puppet!Angel/Horatio Hornblower. And kinda the other way around.
It was really rather disturbing.
Anyway, [/random]
:p